D&D 5E WotC: Please do something about divine spells known bloat in 5e

[Connorsrpg]

Wow, this was THE one thing I was worried 5E had not considered either, when I read about clerics being able to prepare from all spells on their list.

I don't really have a 'power' problem, but it is a problem. It certainly adds to the confusion for newer players and I just think the immense amount of choice can be paralysing. (I too liked the sugar analogy).

Whilst it is easy to mentioning restricting spells, it becomes a real problem when those new spells are better suited to the character (and their power source/deity) than the current ones. It seems a shame for clerics to have to 'forget' some spells for new ones. It is also a problem if you allow access to them all and some do not seem suited to this deity/source AT ALL.

I wish they had have adopted a different strategy from the start and Domains could have been utilised better. Rather than granting one or two spells, they could have granted spells of a particular type.

Now that type could be inspired by Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. And that is exactly what we did with our 3E Spell Lists. Basically every spell got a descriptor. (We started with Monte's and added many of our own).

Clerics then get access to a small 'Universal' list + Spells with descriptors that match their Domains. These can be like 4E and other damage types like 'Fire', schools like 'Charm', but even general terms like 'Melee Combat', 'Plant', 'Earth'.

It worked so well for our 3E games and every divine caster ended up with a focused list. I can see us going down this route later with 5E too.

I just wish their Domain spells were more reflective of this and allowed for future bloat, where even more appropriate spells will be written.

 

[Connorsrpg]

Forgot to add: spells in future supplements could even be labelled with a DOmain and only become available to those that can cast that domain.

Problem would lie when new Domains come out though..maybe. But it is a start to reduce the bloat. (Perhaps that is what they will do).

In any case, a descriptor (even if that IS Domain), would have been agood way to restrict lists AND build a more focussed spell list suitable to the deity/power source.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Interestingly enough, depending on if I see fit, sometimes I make the clerics carry spell books the same as wizards for this very reason.

Our group alternates DMs.

Both DMs, myself included, have a standing rule that divine casters requests for spells can be denied or restricted.

I like the idea of requiring divine casters to have prayer books. But, even then, requests for specific spells might be denied (as least in our games).

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

If I learned to do only one thing from splats over the years, it's to make anything in them both optional and rare. The cleric spells don't just pop up on their lists. They need to be found in dusty prayer books and ancient scrolls.

Splats are the freakin' bane of RPGs. They're like sugar; at first, they make things taste better, but too much makes the RPG fat and lethargic.

Agreed.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I've long felt that Clerics should have a restricted number of spells they can choose from. What's the point of going to seminary school if you can just sit on your butt as a first-level Acolyte and wait? Apparently, everyone just suddenly has a bunch of new ideas about what sorts of things can be prayed for all at once. Shouldn't there be some time spent learning the proper supplications and sacrifices, which will necessarily limit which things you can ask for?

still playing 4e, though, so don't have to worry about it until I start a 5e game

We're converting from PF to 5E.

In game, the reason (though not necessarily understood by the inhabitants of the game world) is the fabric of the multiverse is altering as certain deities ascend and others recede. The net effect on casters is going to be that what's available in 5E Basic is pretty much the standard and that which isn't in 5E Basic is optional. Of course, there will be a transition as casters find that the rites and rituals necessary to cast the spells outside of 5E Basic may change due to the changes in the warp and weft of the fabric of the Weave.

Divine casters that want spells outside of what's in 5E Basic (and especially those spells outside of the 5E PHB) will need to find out what their objects of worship require of them for such requests. They may find that only certain deities are able to grant certain spells (or even levels of spells), as certain deities may lose the power to grant rarer or higher level spells outside of their portfolios.

 

[Lawngnome4hire]

Here's an easy solution. Just say that divine spells are taught by the player's church or order, and that by default they only know the spells in the PHB. If they want to learn a spell from another book they need to learn it just like wizards do.

 

[Raith5]

I am not really a fan of restricting what spells a cleric or a wizard for that matter can learn. If the game is dependent upon DM fiat keeping fireball out of Willy the Wizards spellbook, then you have a deep problem. As I see it, arent there other restrictions on spells in 5e, including a much lower number of high level spells, limited number of spell you can memorise, casting time etc . Isnt this going to be less of a problem in 5e?

 

[Li Shenron]

I am not really a fan of restricting what spells a cleric or a wizard for that matter can learn.

I think D&D had a solution for "unlimited spells list" for a long time... it's right there in the Wizard class:

- you get a certain fixed number of spells learned for free every time you level up
- you pay for additional spells beyond that base number

Some DMs can then decide to make all Wizards' spells available to be learned, while others may still apply additional restrictions if they think the cost is not enough, "dialling" on the frequency of new spells available (an extreme DM can also choose to dial it to zero, and just go with fixed number of known spells).

 

[Falling Icicle]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I don't really see it as much of an issue. A cleric is still limited to preparing a limited number of spells at a time, no matter how many may happen to be on his list. The only way this is really going to be a problem is if a new spell is just plain better than the spells that came before, but that'd be a balance problem regardless. If a spell is too good, a person will take it even if they have limited spells known.

[Edit] That said, I've never really liked that clerics just automatically know every spell on their list. It hasn't really been a balance issue for my groups before, but I just don't think it makes any sense. So any time someone, anyone, anywhere in the universe invents a new cleric spell, every cleric automatically has it pop into their mind? That's just nonsensical, and it removes any of the potential quests that might involve hunting down lost spells or uncovering the secrets of ancient temples, etc. Of course, as other people have already said, you can easily solve this issue by making clerics learn new spells the same way wizards do.

 

[Gilladian]

What I did in 3e and will do in 5e is fairly simple: a cleric builds his list of spells each time he levels up. If the PC doesn't care what spells he has, he has the list from the PH. If he wants a different list, he may go through my list of approved spells (I had them all in a database and would sort them by class, level, domain, etc... as needed), and swap out 1 for 1 with the PH list. So if the PH list had 24 1st level spells on it, he could swap one or all 24 for alternate spells. But that was his fixed list forever more. When he leveled up, he could then create a new list for a newly acquired level of spells, but the previous levels remained fixed. I really very rarely had anyone take me up on the offer; most were happy with the PH list, or with swapping out just a few spells.

For NPC clerics, I generally would just pick from a couple of specific schools for most of their spells; it was easy with my master database, and I didn't care what book they came from at that point, as I had generally cut-pasted the whole description in, and could print it out if needed.