WotC Responds!!!

[Brown Jenkin]

Wow, this thread is still up. Once again I am impressed at the discretion of ENWorlders.

Another effect of their statement is that it prevents the book from being totally ignorable but not so much that it automatically becomes wildly popular.

I mean Madonna's book gets priced at used book stores in hundreds of dollars if it's in nice condition. Loads of really resistant controversy means almost certain financial success.

Any want to go guess what the highest priced used DnD product is and why?

The D&DG with Moorecock and Lovecraft was close and the right idea but I believe the prize goes to an older banned book. The original 5x8 D&D rulebook that included Hobbits and was subsequently ruled by a court to be in copyright violation of Tolkien's work. This is why we now have "halflings" that bear an increadible similarity to hobbits. The reason it is worth more is supply and demand since there are a lot fewer coppies of the illegal OD&D rulebook than there are of the illegal D&DG.

 

[buzz]

Originally posted by Angcuru What do you think people would find more offensive: A book containing details of sacrficing innocents which also contains a spell that requires that you indulge in necrophelia; or a book about sexuality in D&D?

A book about sexuality in D&D.

At least here in the states, the involvement of any kind of explicit or frank discussion of sex changes everything. Violence of all kinds is permissible, but any sort of depiction of human sexuality is utterly prohibited. Ergo, it should be no surprise WotC is quick to distance themselves from a product which sounds essentially like D&D-branded pornography (leaving aside the issue of porn being "good" or "bad").

And, again, comparisons between the sex book and BoVD are misguided. WotC are not being hypocritical (and it's a feat, not a spell that references necrophilia).

 

[Assenpfeffer]

I find the general reaction to this news on these boards to be more than a little disturbing; it's the brought out of all kinds of hard feelings and caused much tooth-grinding - the worst thing to happen to D&D, the ruination of the hobby, and a blight on all that is clean and wholesome.

I see no need for this product and doubt that it can bring anything to gaming. As it is it looks like a piece of juvenile silliness. But you know what? Nobody has actually seen the thing yet. Maybe it will be good, responsible material. That's not the impression I get from the article, but I'm unwilling to flatly discard the possibility without more information. I think it's more likely to be a piece of sophomoric pandering, but either way, I will be happy to laugh at those who sniff sanctimoniously about how their lily-white hobby is now soiled by the dirty nudie book.

This is not a sign of the coming apocalypse. It is not the end of D&D as you know it. It will not sour your milk, kick your dog or poke holes in your waterbed. It's an apparently tasteless product produced in miniscule numbers which will go unseen by the vast majority of hobbyists. It will have no measurable impact on the hobby as a whole. If it affects you, that's very much your problem.

Fun Fact #1 - the overlap between RPG players and fetishists in general, and BDSM practitioners specifically, is huge. If you are surprised by that, maybe it's time to look a bit more closely at your hobby.

Fun Fact #2 - White Wolf has been putting profanity, nudity and graphic descriptions of sex in their products for years. Incredibly, this has not destroyed the hobby, nor is it a sign of armageddon.

 

[buzz]

http://ValarProject.com

Registrant:
Valar Project, Inc.
1909 N. 47th St.
Seattle, WA 98103
US
206.675.8552


Domain Name: VALARPROJECT.COM

Administrative Contact:
Cortez, Michael Epic_Saga@hotmail.com
2450 E. Nutwood Ave #E-30
Fullerton, CA 92831
US
714-936-2834


Technical Contact:
Cortez, Michael Epic_Saga@hotmail.com
2450 E. Nutwood Ave #E-30
Fullerton, CA 92831
US
714-936-2834


Record last updated 04-28-2003 12:52:43 PM
Record expires on 04-28-2004
Record created on 04-28-2003

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.PHPWEBHOSTING.COM 64.65.1.112
NS2.PHPWEBHOSTING.COM 64.65.34.231


So, AV, who works in Renton, WA, is a founding member of an S/M group in Oregon, and set up a site administered by a guy in Fullerton, CA.

I still don't know if I buy any of this.

 

[buzz]

I've heard the arguement that they have no basis to fire him, well guess what, employment in most states is "at will" neither side needs a good reason to fire someone, they just need the abscence of a bad one. Embarassing the company and using your affiliation with the company to imply an endorsement of a product where none exists is a valid reason to fire someone, as is not firing the person responsible for doing so if upper management feels you should have.

Exactamundo. Those of us who live in the real world should no be surprised if AV gets sacked. Assuming this is all for real, which I'm still not sure about.

 

[Henry]

I find the general reaction to this news on these boards to be more than a little disturbing; it's the brought out of all kinds of hard feelings and caused much tooth-grinding - the worst thing to happen to D&D, the ruination of the hobby, and a blight on all that is clean and wholesome.

'pfeffer, I see you registered around November of last year. By chance were you lurking on these boards back in September and October of last year? The exact same thing happened then, concerning the Book of Vile Darkness. We had no less than six thread closings in one day, because of insults, mild profanity directed toward forum members, and insults against Monte and Tracy Hickman.

I remember it fondly, because it was the second day that Dinkledog and I started Moderating.

But you know what? Nobody has actually seen the thing yet. Maybe it will be good, responsible material. That's not the impression I get from the article, but I'm unwilling to flatly discard the possibility without more information.

This is a very worthwhile piece of advice. That which has not yet been made cannot yet ruin an industry.

Fun Fact #1 - the overlap between RPG players and fetishists in general, and BDSM practitioners specifically, is huge. If you are surprised by that, maybe it's time to look a bit more closely at your hobby.

Fun Fact #2 - White Wolf has been putting profanity, nudity and graphic descriptions of sex in their products for years. Incredibly, this has not destroyed the hobby, nor is it a sign of armageddon. [/B]

The first is fascinating to me, because I was not aware of it. Is there a site or book reference that can point me to this?

The second is VERY true, and this has a lot of relevance to Valar Project's book.

Fascinating use of the term, "Valar." I wonder if the Tolkien Estate can claim the name "Valar?"

Could it be an acronym for "Valterra" and someone whose name begins with an "AR"?

 

[maddman75]

It has naked bearded dwarven women? I am *SO* buying this book. I can't stop giggling at the thought .

And I'm not convinced that this whole hullabaloo isn't a plot to garner some mainstream press on it. Imagine, CNN or FoxNews get ahold of this and start a new wave of protest against the game. This would almost assuradly boost sales of D&D in general, if not this specific book.

There's no such thing as bad press.

 

[mkarol]

What, exactly, is wrong with knowing what is right and saying something isn't right? That's what you are saying WotC should not have done. So, does that mean that you know what's right and are you willing to say it's not right to say something's not right? That's the implication of your statement: that it is innapropriate to call something innappropriate? If so, I would like to know on what grounds do you can make that claim?

o·pen
adj.
Affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or closed.

game
n.
An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime

li·cense
n.
Official or legal permission to do or own a specified thing. See Synonyms at permission.

---

WOTC made an open license. It is inappropriate for them to come back and make a statement that basically condemns a product that satisfies that license. That is my grounds for saying their statement was overdone.

If they had added a line that said something like "Although we find this product inappropriate, we respect the right of third party publishers using the OGL to publish the works they create and leave it to the marketplace of consumers to shape the direction of OGL content" then i wouldn’t have a problem.

My basic problem is that when you open the door , you shouldn’t complain about what comes in! Distance yourself, fine. Say that it isn't for you, fine. But don't harshly criticize the people who _do_ want it, _do_ think it is appropriate, or _do_ want to see something new, novel, unique, or different.

At no time in this thread have i discussed the merits of the product to which WOTC was responding (I think), only the response itself. That I do find inappropriate. IMO, YMMV, IAAL (but this communication is for information purposes only), etc. etc. etc.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

It's actually suprising that they tolerate it to begin with.

When I worked at a graphic design studio all the designers used to talk about people at various companies getting fired for doing freelance work. One of the co-owners of the place I worked at started her business because of this...

And while I was there I got to see them fire their first employee (a girl who'd been there since day one, but not as a partner) after they caught her doing freelance work...

Generally, if they hire you full time they expect to get your full time commitment, not have you working on side projects over at your desk / cubicle / office / studio on company time and resources...

There is a huge difference between doing freelance work at night and on the weekends at home and doing freelance work during the week at your normal job.

The second one is little more than theft and the person deserves to be fired.

The first though is completely legal and unless you have some bizarre "no moonlighting" clause in your contract it is none of your employers business.

 

[Bulletproof]

The press release used WOTC's trademark "Dungeons and Dragons". WOTC can defend its trademarks. AV didn't have to use their trademark. He chose to, and opened himself up to a response from WOTC.

This is probably why the OGL requires permission to use trademarks in advertising, and is an example of why you shouldn't use loopholes, if that's what he did. (the theoretical loophole being "is a press release considered an advertisement...I'd say yeah, but that's just my opinion)

Now if he got permission to use the trademark, WOTC is definitely out of line with their response, IMO, even if they are still within their legal rights. If they give permission to use a trademark, they should make it their business to know how it will be used, and should have nothing but positive things to say about it.

It's like watching a train wreck.