A lot has yet to be said for the setting but as I sat and listened to the guys at Gencon talk about it, Earthdawn came to mind. 
WotC setting search winner - Eberron
- Thread starter Hecatol
- Start date
Anyway...
...the problem here is a lack of context. In a sense it's like trying to describe a platypus based on eggshells, hair, and a piece of beak. I can see people identifying each as belonging to, respectively, a snake, a mammal, and a duck. Insufficient data for a meaningful answer in other words.
I can only hope that some people have learned to reserve judgement henceforth. Furthermore, that those same peole, and others, have learned to restrain from commenting when emotions have clouded reason and bollixed their skill at composing an argument.
On the other hand (slipping into self promotion mode), it has helped set a feature of my Dragon Earth setting.
{Thread hijack! Thread hijack! Thread hijack!}
The First Trains
It has long been thought that Hero of Alexandria, despite his protests, was the inventor of the construct locomotive, and the first to use such to pull a train of wagons on an iron rail. The recent discoveries on the site of the archeological dig at Myceneaen era Sparta has forced a substantial re-evaluation of this.
There a number of small brass constructs -some still registering magically, though very faintly- has put the date back for the invention of the magical construct to the Late Bronze Age*.
While small, no more than a pound each, they are well made, articulated, and from the wear patterns on the joints show signs of having been active at one time in the past. Contrary to reports in some circles, these were not inanimate dolls, but functioning devices. Though from their design it is doubtful they were but to any use but amusement.
Five of the six are obviously Egyptian in design, being constructed in the form of five of the six major Egyptian gods. The last is Myceneaen, indicating that at one time a Myceneaen sorcerer learned the art of making constructs. This last is thought to be a representation of King Menelaus of Sparta, the famous leader of the Greek forces in the Trojan War. Menelaus was not available for comment, having been reincarnated soon after his death.
It is known that by the time of Classical Greece larger constructs were being made (as large as 100 pounds in weight), though the huge constructs sometimes referred to as golems would come much later, in the Late Medieval period.
Concurrent with the Mycenean Sparta discoveries has come a series of discoveries at the ancient Athenian silver mines. There two bronze constructs in the form of carts has been found. Both linked together with ropes, with the second tied by rope to an ore cart. All three sitting on iron rails. The whole radiating weak magic. The rear of the ore cart had been crushed beneath a cave in, so any speculation regarding additional cars must remain speculative. Initially thought to be from the Late Roman period -when the mines played out and were abandoned, further investigation has shown the train dates from the Periclean Age. The why of the abandonment of what had to be a valuable resource was answered when the weakly animated skeleton of a demon was found past the rock and debris that had crushed the rear of the ore cart. The demonic spirit, a long time convert to Christianity, was pathetically grateful for his rescue, and more than happy to 'pass on' so he could be with his god.
Further investigation and the re-evaluation of previous finds has shown that the Athenians were using constructs to pull ore carts at their silver mines. With a comprehensive infrastructure for the manufacture, maintenance, and use of 'lococarts' (as one wag dubbed them) in the transportation of silver ore from mine to smelter.
The question has arisen as to why the Athenians didn't transport the ore in the lococarts. From my study of the constructs it would appear they were not designed to carry things, but to pull. For one, they were to small, for another, too expensive, to make them worthwhile as cargo carriers, but they were strong enough to pull at least one fully laden ore cart, and possibly more. The presence of hemp fibers in the debris back of the ore cart and the fact there were two lococarts pulling the train would seem to indicate the presence of additional entrained ore carts. But the wreckage found in the space where the demon had been imprisoned was too fragmentary to be reliably reconstructed.
So, as you can see, trains long predate Hero's invention for the transportation of tourists from Alexandria to Memphis.
Mythusmage.
*Professor Arneson's discovery of bronze rods and linkages at 3rd millennium bce Shirrup-pak in central Sumer indicates a more advanced bronze technology than previously known, but in no way proves the existance of magical construct at that early time. For one thing, no one has yet found any spells or other magics from the period that would necessarily precede the development of construct magic. Nor is there any record of magical constructs. This in a society where most anything of note was inscribed for posterity or the tax rolls. The presence of constructs in ancient Sumer (and fairly large ones if the bits and pieces speak true of the parent device) would certainly change our view of that culture and its use of magic. But Arneson has yet to prove his case.
...the problem here is a lack of context. In a sense it's like trying to describe a platypus based on eggshells, hair, and a piece of beak. I can see people identifying each as belonging to, respectively, a snake, a mammal, and a duck. Insufficient data for a meaningful answer in other words.
I can only hope that some people have learned to reserve judgement henceforth. Furthermore, that those same peole, and others, have learned to restrain from commenting when emotions have clouded reason and bollixed their skill at composing an argument.
On the other hand (slipping into self promotion mode), it has helped set a feature of my Dragon Earth setting
.{Thread hijack! Thread hijack! Thread hijack!}
The First Trains
It has long been thought that Hero of Alexandria, despite his protests, was the inventor of the construct locomotive, and the first to use such to pull a train of wagons on an iron rail. The recent discoveries on the site of the archeological dig at Myceneaen era Sparta has forced a substantial re-evaluation of this.
There a number of small brass constructs -some still registering magically, though very faintly- has put the date back for the invention of the magical construct to the Late Bronze Age*.
While small, no more than a pound each, they are well made, articulated, and from the wear patterns on the joints show signs of having been active at one time in the past. Contrary to reports in some circles, these were not inanimate dolls, but functioning devices. Though from their design it is doubtful they were but to any use but amusement.
Five of the six are obviously Egyptian in design, being constructed in the form of five of the six major Egyptian gods. The last is Myceneaen, indicating that at one time a Myceneaen sorcerer learned the art of making constructs. This last is thought to be a representation of King Menelaus of Sparta, the famous leader of the Greek forces in the Trojan War. Menelaus was not available for comment, having been reincarnated soon after his death.
It is known that by the time of Classical Greece larger constructs were being made (as large as 100 pounds in weight), though the huge constructs sometimes referred to as golems would come much later, in the Late Medieval period.
Concurrent with the Mycenean Sparta discoveries has come a series of discoveries at the ancient Athenian silver mines. There two bronze constructs in the form of carts has been found. Both linked together with ropes, with the second tied by rope to an ore cart. All three sitting on iron rails. The whole radiating weak magic. The rear of the ore cart had been crushed beneath a cave in, so any speculation regarding additional cars must remain speculative. Initially thought to be from the Late Roman period -when the mines played out and were abandoned, further investigation has shown the train dates from the Periclean Age. The why of the abandonment of what had to be a valuable resource was answered when the weakly animated skeleton of a demon was found past the rock and debris that had crushed the rear of the ore cart. The demonic spirit, a long time convert to Christianity, was pathetically grateful for his rescue, and more than happy to 'pass on' so he could be with his god.
Further investigation and the re-evaluation of previous finds has shown that the Athenians were using constructs to pull ore carts at their silver mines. With a comprehensive infrastructure for the manufacture, maintenance, and use of 'lococarts' (as one wag dubbed them) in the transportation of silver ore from mine to smelter.
The question has arisen as to why the Athenians didn't transport the ore in the lococarts. From my study of the constructs it would appear they were not designed to carry things, but to pull. For one, they were to small, for another, too expensive, to make them worthwhile as cargo carriers, but they were strong enough to pull at least one fully laden ore cart, and possibly more. The presence of hemp fibers in the debris back of the ore cart and the fact there were two lococarts pulling the train would seem to indicate the presence of additional entrained ore carts. But the wreckage found in the space where the demon had been imprisoned was too fragmentary to be reliably reconstructed.
So, as you can see, trains long predate Hero's invention for the transportation of tourists from Alexandria to Memphis.
Mythusmage.
*Professor Arneson's discovery of bronze rods and linkages at 3rd millennium bce Shirrup-pak in central Sumer indicates a more advanced bronze technology than previously known, but in no way proves the existance of magical construct at that early time. For one thing, no one has yet found any spells or other magics from the period that would necessarily precede the development of construct magic. Nor is there any record of magical constructs. This in a society where most anything of note was inscribed for posterity or the tax rolls. The presence of constructs in ancient Sumer (and fairly large ones if the bits and pieces speak true of the parent device) would certainly change our view of that culture and its use of magic. But Arneson has yet to prove his case.
drnuncheon
Explorer
rounser said:
Er, what do you think I've been doing?
J
Desdichado
Hero
Rounser, I think you're now the one painting himself into a corner. The very existence of Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, and a variety of other campaign settings that date back to -- what, the mid-80s?-- show that D&D is not a swords and sorcery style fantasy game, at least not exclusively. I can't imagine a way to paint those as appropriate settings from a genre perspective, but dismiss out of hand that this will be.rounser said:
Desdichado
Hero
Re: Re: Re: Beat out Midnight???
And everyone is supposed to be connected by no more than seven degrees to Kevin Bacon too. Actually, I'm at six, so if you know me, you're in!mythusmage said:To be technical, no close relation to Rich Baker.
After all, everybody, at the greatest remove, is a 50th cousin of everybody else.
(Yes, Teflon Billy is a relative of yours)
WizarDru
Adventurer
rounser said:
I assume by self-referential, you're referring to the fact that the Riftwar series was, itself, based on the author's D&D campaign (which it was)?
Since some posters may have missed the link, here is Keith Baker's reply on rpg.net to some of the initial comments, similar to what has been said here:
Not so; they're all swords & sorcery with a twist, some more convincing than others. I find it easier to "buy" the twist Dark Sun has than Spelljammer. As I keep repeating to no avail, we haven't seen Eberron's twist yet, or the reason for existence of things such as lightning rails, but there will need to be one for players to accept it, because it doesn't just stick to standard S&S tropes as FR and GH do, just as there is one for the existence of the non-standard swords & sorcery stuff in Spelljammer. Additionally, there are varying degrees of convincing people that combining standard swords & sorcery fantasy D&D with dark future material or kobolds in space is a good idea, as evidenced perhaps by the different degrees of success of these settings.
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Desdichado
Hero
Not to no avail, I agree with you whole-heartedly. But, then again, I disagree with you that Spelljammer, Planescape or Dark Sun are mere "twists" on a familiar genre; those essentially are completely different genres within fantasy. Or at least I'd classify them as such. Certainly Spelljammer is as different in its own way from Tolkien than Stephen King's Dark Tower books are.
EDIT: And certainly, I'd disagree with your apparent assessment of adherence to genre conventions being directly correlated to the success of the setting. Especially since "standard" D&D itself isn't truly sword & sorcery, but a hybrid of S&S with a more Tolkien-esque, epic fantasy.
EDIT: And certainly, I'd disagree with your apparent assessment of adherence to genre conventions being directly correlated to the success of the setting. Especially since "standard" D&D itself isn't truly sword & sorcery, but a hybrid of S&S with a more Tolkien-esque, epic fantasy.
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