WotC Wants your Feedback On The Revised Ranger

I'm a big fan of the concave Rangers. When they're out in nature they can collect rainwater during a storm... they're great! *EDIT* Okaaaaaayyy... so the merging of the two threads pretty much made this joke superfluous. ;)

I'm a big fan of the concave Rangers. When they're out in nature they can collect rainwater during a storm... they're great!

*EDIT* Okaaaaaayyy... so the merging of the two threads pretty much made this joke superfluous. ;)
 

If they were planning out 6e, I think "do we need a ranger?" would be a legitimate question (you could substitute any class name for ranger), and for 6e (if there is a 6e), the answer may be no or the ranger might be a subclass or a family of subclasses (assuming there is such a thing as subclasses in 6e).


For 5e, the devs have committed to a ranger. I think they made a big mistake trying to do too many thing to "fix" the ranger--throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall to see what sticks would have been a good plan during the playtest, but once the ranger was already out, it created an identity crisis. If the Conclave rangers aren't widely loved, I suspect the identity crisis will have permanently damaged the ranger brand, reducing the class to a theme ("the ranger is the wilderness dude"), in which case the long-term future of rangers might be as a family of subclasses.
 

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The_Gneech

Explorer
What does "it's not D&D" even mean? What does Dungeons & Dragons mean? Is it a collection of rules and names that are familiar, or is it a toolbox that allows for epic adventures and interaction? My original argument can be applied to every aspect of D&D. You can play Pathfinder, or Castles & Crusades, and still call it D&D. Heck, you can play Savage Worlds and call it D&D. As long as the mechanics make sense for the world, then they can be anything.

You can put syrup on a pizza, but that won't make it waffles. ;P

Pathfinder only exists because so many people were shouting "It's not D&D!" about 4E. Whether it's a meaningful distinction to you or not, "It's not D&D" is a real thing that devs have to consider when making game design choices for, specifically, a game that's going to be called Dungeons and Dragons and sold to players who want that particular game.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

What does "it's not D&D" even mean? What does Dungeons & Dragons mean? Is it a collection of rules and names that are familiar, or is it a toolbox that allows for epic adventures and interaction? My original argument can be applied to every aspect of D&D. You can play Pathfinder, or Castles & Crusades, and still call it D&D. Heck, you can play Savage Worlds and call it D&D. As long as the mechanics make sense for the world, then they can be anything.

Dungeons and Dragons is (outside of copyright laws and ownerships and such) a shared social construct. Something "is D&D" if the fanbase agrees with it and isn't if they don't. Pathfinder is "D&D with the serial #s filed off" because people buy it and play it synonymous with D&D. 4e "isn't D&D enough" because the fanbase (overall, not to a person of course) did not transition to it. Given that WotC's goals include getting people to buy and play the game, they have to make rangers that their players will accept as rangers.
 

isdestroyer

First Post
The reason 4E didn't feel right was because the mechanics didn't really match the world. It felt like the two were separate. Granted, this is from my group's experience, but I'm pretty sure many people felt that way. Now, you said that it's too late for 5E to get rid of the Ranger, but would it not be better to cut it off now, rather than constantly fumble about with revisions, not only damaging the overall experience, but proving that they have no idea what to do with it?
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
I didn't participate in any previous "panic" so I wouldn't know.

But giving people a bonus for going first and making it easier to go first synergies really well. And at 1st level, going first can win fights: dropping an enemy and negating damage before it even gets a turn. That's strong in and of itself, but adding the ability to just outright ignore any and all difficult terrain is really good on top of that.

I'd replace advantage with adding proficiency to initiative. The end game bonus is higher, but that comes into play far later, when the alpha strike is less devastating. The low levels it is weaker, thus making it more in line with other first level features.

I'd also move the difficult terrain avoidance back up to higher level. Just too good.
Give the ranger a small skill bonus instead. An expertise variant, perhaps limited to survival or perception. Something that doesn't directly help kill things...

How exactly does going first win a fight? It give you an advantage, sure, but there is a good chance the Ranger with a high Dex was going to go first anyway! He get's one shot with advantage with his bow, which again might have hit anyway, and now his ability is done. If he's melee there is no guarantee that an enemy will be in range to attack, so that wastes that ability. That's it for that combat.

How is that so great again? It's cool, sure. Get jumped by some goblins and the Ranger reacts quickly and efficiently. That sounds like a Ranger to me. But the other side being down one goblin isn't going to end any encounters.

The Ranger needs something that is useful at 1st level to help him keep up with the other classes. Barbarians get 2 Rages that gives them +2 damage, resistance to all physical attacks and advantage on all strength checks. Paladins get a combat heal (that increases every level) that can also cure any disease or poison. Fighters get a self combat heal usable every short rest plus a Fighting Style that adds either +2 to ranged attacks, +2 to one-handed damage, re-rolls on two-handed damage (essentially advantage on damage rolls), etc.

Meanwhile the PHB Ranger got exactly nothing combat related. Adding advantage to initiative rolls, advantage to the first round of attacks (one or two depending on level) and a situational +2 damage has to stack up against everything that the other classes get. Compared to the Barbarian's Rage, it's not looking that overpowering. Ignoring difficult terrain is nice, but it doesn't happen all the time. Honestly in the canned adventures that I have played it probably comes up less than 10% of the time. Useful, and great flavor for a Ranger, but hardly game breaking, even at 1st level.

By 6th level the Revised Ranger's situational +2 bonus goes to +4 and they can make it slightly less situational. Meanwhile the Barbarian can Rage 4 times a day making their bonus almost an 'always active' ability. The Paladin can now drop a 30 point heal and the Fighter (most likely) gets an additional +1 to hit and damage (maybe AC too) from his ASI and his self heal goes from 1d10+1 to 1d10+6.

Of course there are a lot of other factors for each level of all of the classes.

The paladin's spells directly translate to higher personal damage, due to the smite. New spells mean more damage when needed. And each level has a smite spell for extra utility.

The ranger doesn't have that. They can just cast hunter's mark for longer (and lose it when they get hit, since they're not proficient with Con saves). Their damage stays constant.
At the very best, this is true until 17th level when they can cast swift quiver, which is useful for archers and useless for two-weapon fighters. And comes at the cost of hunter's mark.
However, two weapon ranger has the same DPR at level 20 as at level 12. Even the archetype features are defensive.


Ranger spells are already pretty problematic.
First, the archetypal rangers (Robin Hood, Drizzt, Strider, Tanis Half-elven, Belkar Bitterleaf) are not spellcasters. Spells should be optional. Spells should be a secondary decision point. Like how warlocks pick a patron and a pact bond.
Second, nothing draws attention to the "class feature" spell (hunter's mark). You need to read far deeper than a casual glance at the class (the back of the book) to find that. All rangers should just get that for free, drawing eyes to the spell. If it could be buffed in the class, that would also be cool.

Drizzt used magic all the time, Faerie Fire and Darkness immediately come to mind. Although those were Drow spells. Honestly Salvator was horrible at representing magic in his novels. I have only read a few but I remember him describing his characters resting for months to recover from some battle or other and I'm thinking, "Why the heck don't they just cast a few heal spells?" It was pretty frustrating to read honestly.

My favorite Ranger from D&D novels was The Justicar (real name Evelyn) from the Greyhawk Classics series. He is a huge, bald-headed, death machine that used ambush, dirty fighting and well placed spells to take out his enemies in a ruthless and efficient manner. Much to the chagrin of Benelux, his sentient bastard sword, that was more used to dealing with honorable paladins. He also pretty commonly used healing magic, because why wouldn't you?

But more on point... Yes, the Ranger spell list could use a boost. But you left out a few good spells in there. I don't have my books, but Lightning Arrow is a good one. Definitely need more melee spells though.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
The reason 4E didn't feel right was because the mechanics didn't really match the world. It felt like the two were separate. Granted, this is from my group's experience, but I'm pretty sure many people felt that way. Now, you said that it's too late for 5E to get rid of the Ranger, but would it not be better to cut it off now, rather than constantly fumble about with revisions, not only damaging the overall experience, but proving that they have no idea what to do with it?

Really not understanding what your problem with the Ranger is. I think the current revision pretty clearly shows what a Ranger is as opposed to a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin. He is a wilderness warrior and survivalist who's skills are broadly useful in any environment.

Just because he learned how to sneak and ambush in the wild doesn't mean he can only sneak and ambush in the wild. A Rogue (presumably) learned to sneak in a city, but she can still sneak in a forest or a dungeon or whatever.

So instead of saying why we should keep the Ranger, how about telling us why we shouldn't have a Ranger. What would be gained by having less classes to choose from?
 

Because it needs to be humored. Change doesn't occur unless you try. In my opinion, the only reason the Ranger exists is because it existed in previous editions, as opposed to the game needing it.
But what concrete proposal are you making here? That instead of an Unearthed Arcana column revising the ranger, Mearls writes a column saying, "We're cutting the ranger, tear those pages out of your PHB, sorry"? Obviously nothing like that is going to happen. So what is your point?

The reason 4E didn't feel right was because the mechanics didn't really match the world. It felt like the two were separate. Granted, this is from my group's experience, but I'm pretty sure many people felt that way. Now, you said that it's too late for 5E to get rid of the Ranger, but would it not be better to cut it off now, rather than constantly fumble about with revisions, not only damaging the overall experience, but proving that they have no idea what to do with it?
I'm not at all seeing the connection between the 4E dissociation problem and the 5E ranger. Are you trying to say the ranger is dissociated too? How so?
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Because it needs to be humored. Change doesn't occur unless you try. In my opinion, the only reason the Ranger exists is because it existed in previous editions, as opposed to the game needing it.
No class exists due to a need.

Every class - including the ranger - exists due to a want.
 

ghabrel

First Post
So I'm not quite what I'm sure many of you would consider a legitimate, vetted D&Der (I started with 4e, have never actually played myself, and DM without any counsel or advice from experienced DMs), but personally, I have trouble finding any negatives from going to the revised Ranger from the one in the PHB. Everything feels like either a lateral move or an upgrade. I mean, that advantage on Initiative, though... feelin' it. Favored enemy applies to ALL humanoids now, instead of just 2 races? Yes please. I like how Beast Master is much more clearly explained, although the limitation of available beasts is upsetting (Porque no Giant Owl?). On that note, I never really saw anything that expressed how riding a beast companion might work, as I saw mentioned earlier in this thread. And the new Archety- erm, I mean... Conclave... seems like added options (although I agree with the notion that it seems to be fighting with Rogue role-wise), which are nice, even if I wouldn't really use them. But hey, I'm essentially a newb that needs to lurk moar, so what does my opinion matter?
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Because it needs to be humored. Change doesn't occur unless you try. In my opinion, the only reason the Ranger exists is because it existed in previous editions, as opposed to the game needing it.

Mearls has said in the past that surveys show the Ranger is the fifth most popular class and is the top rated non-core class. Yes, it's more popular than Paladin, Sorcerer, Barbarian, Bard, etc.. It's also the subject of their best selling novels. It's not going away. Ever.
 

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