D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[Irlo]

My favorite one is the one where Chill apparently gets Martha's pearls stuck in the slide of his pistol somehow.

I thought Martha was Superman’s mother.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I thought Martha was Superman’s mother.

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?

 

[ashenfrontiers]

Today we’ve updated our website (www.ashenfrontiers.com) with information about the two game systems Ashen Frontiers will support, and provided a preview of the six classes for the game!

Bought a publisher account, but apparently it has to be a new account (or I'm not smart enough to link everything together). Anyways, this is me with my Ashen Frontiers hat on.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Please, maybe some players use DS to play their own version of the Gor saga, but that is not fault by WotC.

What if now I say "Ixalan" is a "theme park experience" of the conquest of America? Or we could talk about "the maid's tale" (the true intention by the author was a a critique against the Iranian regime).

And what about the cyberpunk stories set in a future distopian dictatorship where political prisoners are sentenced to forced labor?

Or a new story set in New Capena, where the country is invaded by a dictatorship, and one of the first actions by the resistence is to rescue and free the prisons of war, who fought to try stop the invasion, sent to forced works (= slavery).

I do not accept being accused of frivolity. My parents and grandparents not only lived in a dictatorship, but also my grandparent's generation suffered the worst genocide, or attempt of genocide, in our History. When a Catholic priest or a nun is showed in a fictional work with a.... bad image.... it is an insult for all the people who paid with their lives the hate against the faith. That hate is killing more people than the racism or the homophobia, even in the last year.

Are you against a videogame where America is invaded by the III Reich(Wolfstein II: the new Colossus)? Or conquered by North-Korea (videogame Homefront).

Do you allow in your game a villain group as the Magisterium(His dark materials) or the reverend Leland Drud (White Wolf 2: the myth of the white wolf, played by Alfred Molina), or don't you because it is offensive?

Do you know the episode "the slave island" of X-Men the animated serie? It was about slavery.

Are you really coherent and sensible when you say to others about when any thing is offensive/frivolous or not?

Do you play with mummy monsters in your game, or instead are you politically correct and do you say "mummified creature"?

British Museum stops using the word 'MUMMY' out of 'respect' for dead

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm pretty tired of this false equivalency wherein because I'd like WotC to lay off having funtimes with the system that still has repercussions on my actual real life up to and including the point where I'm paranoid about having my hands visible at all times in case someone wants to take the opportunity to legally murder me for carrying a subway sandwich (ah yes, that happened near where I live), I'm somehow required to account for and feel the exact same way about every bad thing you can think of.

So stop. Just stop.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Sorry, but I don't know you are talking about. And I have suffered psychological abuse. Once even I went into a berserker state, literally "blinded by the rage". I didn't sense the hit in the front, and I have got still the scar. We were in a judgment because that incident, and I won it.

We need a debate as civilized people, because if if we make concessions too soon, others will demand more and more, until reaching ridiculous levels.

Should be cancelled "The Mask of the Red Death" because in the Victorian age there is a complete genocide in Tasmanian? What if I say I feel unconfortable, not offended but only unconfortable, with Yagno Petrovna, the dark lord of G'Henna (Ravenloft)? Or let's imagine I start about Castilla, one of the nations from the rpg "7th Sea" (now by Chaosium) and I say Castilla is showed with lots of tropes and predjudices according to the wasps' vision against Spanish empire, the supreme power in that age.

But I can't ask the censorship against all the things I dislike, can I? But I can try to explain the reasons because I am not happy with certain elements. Would you accept in a future in the setting Ixalan there was an invasion by turbant-wearer vampires? Somebody could say it is offensive for the turbant-wearers from the real life, couldn't he? Would you allow invader vampires with turbants in your game?

In the Harry Potter's saga there is "fictional racism", we have got the "pureblood", the "half-blood" and the "muggleborns" (and the main characters are one of each type). Should the franchise be boycotted because the writters said any thing? But the last videogame has sold very well, maybe because nobdy cared about that trouble.

There are bad people who hate others, but that happens even in zones where everybody is the same ethnicity, culture and religion, they will be willing to fight one against others, only because they favorite sport teams are rival, or because that nerd boy in the classroom has better grades (the syndrome of the tall poppies, hostility against the one who stands out above the rest, by his own merits, by envious and rivals).

If you really want to stop that madness, then the imposition of new taboos is not the right way, but promoting values as the good sense and the respect for the human dignity.

I am convinced the slavery and racism can be showed in the speculative fiction, even in titles for +12y, with the right and necesary respect for the victims of serious injustices in the real life.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Sorry, but I don't know you are talking about.

Yes. That is the problem.

You aren't listening to people explaining what the problem is and just forging ahead in defense of getting the thing you want regardless of how it affects others.

 

[Raiztt]

Yes. That is the problem.

You aren't listening to people explaining what the problem is and just forging ahead in defense of getting the thing you want regardless of how it affects others.

He's defending his position, you are defending yours. If he's guilty of not listening to you, aren't you just as guilty of not listening to him?

It's possible that he is [listening to people explaining what the problem is] and he is just not agreeing with you that it is a problem.

Also, the charge of that he is [forging ahead in defense of getting the thing you want regardless of how it affects others.] is just as available to him towards you as it is for you towards him.

It isn't the case that your position is just obviously correct to everyone - even if it's obviously correct to you.

Is it not the case that you are both saying "WotC should do what I want them to do"? If you say "yes, but my position is the correct one/correct desire" that would require you to actually demonstrate that - which is exactly what LuisCarlos17f is arguing about.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Maybe it is because English is not my first languange, and also because I have learn to untrust people who start to say "this should be censored because it is offensive"... but after I see other things offensive for my own opinion but totally allowed. And I ask coherence and clarity to avoid possible abuses in the name of the "modern sensibilities". I start to worry when I read "we want to create inclusive content", because then the majority starts to be excluded.

My opinion is we should find a way where slavery, bigotry and other things could be showed in the (+12y) fiction, and with the right and necessary respect for the victims who have suffered serious injustices in the real life.

The old cinematographic saga of "the planet of the apes" was about the slavery. Batlefield: Earth was a sci-fi movie where all mankin was slavered by the aliens. Wouldn't you allow a Star Frontiers game where the PCs start a slave rebellion against the alien invaders?

Detroit: Become Human is a videogame about AI slaves.

Slavery

Slavery or enslavement was the act of one sentient being having control of another in violation of the other's will. The one so enslaved was referred to as a slave. Slaves were often considered the property of the enslaver, and could be sold. The Slaver Empire controlled a large galactic empire...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Slavery

Slavery, the most despicable of trades.Police officer Exantor Divo Slavery was a practice and institution where sentient beings were bought, sold, and held as property of other sentient beings. Beings subject to slavery were called slaves and said to be enslaved. Enslaved beings were forced to...

starwars.fandom.com

Slavery

Slavery was an ancient practice of human labor that re-emerged and remained in the following millennia, although controversially. Slavery existed even after the Time of Titans. Most slaves were mainly captured humans that served the Thinking Machines of the Synchronized Worlds. Humans were...

dune.fandom.com

Beast of Burden

"Beast of Burden" is the seventh episode of the fifth season of Stargate SG-1. Chaka and other Unas are kidnapped and sold as slaves on another planet. While SG-1 observes, Dr. Daniel Jackson and Colonel Jack O'Neill are captured, and Major Samantha Carter and Teal'c plan to break them out. A...

stargate.fandom.com

Slavery

Slavery is the subjugation of an individual, to be bought and sold by another, usually for forced labor. The Isu created humans to be their slaves, and throughout history, the Assassin Order believed that the Templars intended to return humanity to that state. The First Civilization controlled...

assassinscreed.fandom.com

Slavery

Slavery is a business practice in the post-War world, in which people are bought and sold as property. Although many of the larger pockets of civilization have outlawed slavery, the practice yet persists throughout the wasteland. Slavery is a controlled business in the post-nuclear world. Nearly...

fallout.fandom.com

Heliope

The Heliopes, are inhabitants of Starmist (of the Sundown system), are actually from a different system. They were slaves of a race called the Clikks, resembling the Vrusk, who explored the Sundown area. One of the military exploration vessels, mapping in the region of Starmist, had problems...

starfrontiers.fandom.com

 

[DarkCrisis]

I did not think I would ever see Battlefield: Earth brought up in a modern conversation not related to bad films, but as a positive for allowing any form of storytelling... I mean... yeah

 

[ashenfrontiers]

So just made and published my first video development journal for Ashen Frontiers, all about the systems. Share it out so we can grow the project and help make Ashen Frontiers a reality!

 

[Irlo]

Maybe it is because English is not my first languange, and also because I have learn to untrust people who start to say "this should be censored because it is offensive"... but after I see other things offensive for my own opinion but totally allowed. And I ask coherence and clarity to avoid possible abuses in the name of the "modern sensibilities". I start to worry when I read "we want to create inclusive content", because then the majority starts to be excluded.

I’ve said it before, I say it now, and, the gods help me, I’ll probably end up saying it again tomorrow:

This isn’t about censorship. It’s not about what’s allowed and what’s prohibited. No one is suggesting that WotC should be prevented from publishing anything they please.

It’s not helpful to frame this conversation in those terms.

 

[Scribe]

No one is suggesting that WotC should be prevented from publishing anything they please.

Are you sure? Because I've seen it more than once that people have absolutely stated Wizards should not print content which touches on various themes, concepts, or styles.

 

[Irlo]

Are you sure? Because I've seen it more than once that people have absolutely stated Wizards should not print content which touches on various themes, concepts, or styles.

Yep, pretty sure. You’re conflating two different ideas.

“I don’t think WotC should print this content.”

“I don’t think WotC should be allowed to print this content.”

Point me to anyone who took that second position and I’ll revise my statement.

 

[Scribe]

Yep, pretty sure. You’re conflating two different ideas.

“I don’t think WotC should print this content.”

“I don’t think WotC should be allowed to print this content.”

Point me to anyone who took that second position and I’ll revise my statement.

How about this.

"Wizards should not print this content."

Can we come to the middle?

 

[AnotherGuy]

But making a Dark Sun that's uncontroversial? That's "inclusive" to climate change deniers and people who love billionaires? That's impossible.

That's like saying atheists and monotheists don't feel inclusive playing within a polytheist setting. And I know that's not true. I'm pretty sure anyone who doesn't buy the corporate science on climate change is ok within a dystopian setting where climate was altered by magic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yep, pretty sure. You’re conflating two different ideas.

“I don’t think WotC should print this content.”

“I don’t think WotC should be allowed to print this content.”

Point me to anyone who took that second position and I’ll revise my statement.

I don't see a functional difference from a debate point of view.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't see a functional difference from a debate point of view.

“I don’t think you should drive without a seatbelt”

“I don’t think you should be allowed to drive without a seatbelt.”

The first is an acknowledgement that you can do it, it's just an unwise action that could have negative consequences. The second is a prohibition on the action of which breaking the prohibition is a negative consequence. The first is still your choice; you can f around and find out if you wish. In the second, the choice is made for you by someone with the power to enforce it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

“I don’t think you should drive without a seatbelt”

“I don’t think you should be allowed to drive without a seatbelt.”

The first is an acknowledgement that you can do it, it's just an unwise action that could have negative consequences. The second is a prohibition on the action of which breaking the prohibition is a negative consequence. The first is still your choice; you can f around and find out if you wish. In the second, the choice is made for you by someone with the power to enforce it.

Both are still saying "I don't like this thing, and am glad this product that a lot of people like doesn't have it anymore". They are functionally on the same side vs. "I think this thing is ok to have in that product, and disagree with the decision to remove it".

 

[pemerton]

Am I the only person who has links to DriveThru RPG where I can buy Dark Sun content?

That's the only way I can make sense of this "censorship" argument!