D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[DorkForge]

First of all, it's "judgment," not "judgement." Sorry, but that always bugs me.

I'm just going to throw this out there: On the internet you speak to people from different cultures and different degrees of language proficiency. Not only is nitpicking someone like this a bit over the top in a forum post, it's hardly like casual internet conversation is the peak of proper language discussion, you're wrong. Judgment vs judgement is an instance of US vs UK English, the e is perfectly acceptable here (the UK), so it might be best to consider what you're correcting if you're going to correct people's language outside of the topic

 

[DarkCrisis]

Honestly, much like Dragonlance, they would just have bare-minimum 5 pages of lore and then an adventure. I'm pretty sure in the 20 or less paragraphs to describe a dying desert world they can avoid everything else, again much like Dragonlance.

The only reason they may have an issue is the Old Stuff they don't want used in the DM Guild stuff. No new material, even fan made and sold on an official channel, that might be considered "to much".

 

[Alzrius]

I'm just going to throw this out there: On the internet you speak to people from different cultures and different degrees of language proficiency.

The issue with throwing things out is that sometimes your aim goes awry. Fortunately, there are people who know better and can offer correction when that happens. In this case, my tagging @Irlo with regard to using "judgement" instead of "judgment" was quite specific, as Irlo has used the latter spelling on more than one occasion. Hence, I feel comfortable that there's no claim of being British to be made as a defense (or if there is, then those other posts are where a misspelling happened).

Not only is nitpicking someone like this a bit over the top in a forum post, it's hardly like casual internet conversation is the peak of proper language discussion, you're wrong.

Leaving aside that, as it turns out, I'm not wrong (and given that @Irlo has been pedantic on other points by their own admission, I doubt they'd fault me there), there's no merit in holding people to lower standards rather than higher ones.

Judgment vs judgement is an instance of US vs UK English, the e is perfectly acceptable here (the UK), so it might be best to consider what you're correcting if you're going to correct people's language outside of the topic

You forgot to put a period at the end of that last sentence.

As for the issue of spelling in the UK, well...I'll let Rex Harrison make a salient point in that regard:

 

[DorkForge]

The issue with throwing things out is that sometimes your aim goes awry. Fortunately, there are people who know better and can offer correction when that happens. In this case, my tagging @Irlo with regard to using "judgement" instead of "judgment" was quite specific, as Irlo has used the latter spelling on more than one occasion. Hence, I feel comfortable that there's no claim of being British to be made as a defense (or if there is, then those other posts are where a misspelling happened).

I interchangeably use American and British English for a variety of reasons, I was raised heavily on American media, I frequently read things written by Americans, and I have to write in American English for my job... which is writing. Flip-flopping between the two doesn't invalidate whichever I use second, nor quite frankly, does it matter.

Leaving aside that, as it turns out, I'm not wrong (and given that @Irlo has been pedantic on other points by their own admission, I doubt they'd fault me there), there's no merit in holding people to lower standards rather than higher ones.

One is being pedantic about spell mechanics for a reason, and being transparent about it to boot, the other is being pedantic about a person just talking. And if you're on a quest to hold people to high standards regarding use of language, I have bad news for you about how languages actually function. Or perhaps I might have missed where we are speaking as if verbalising an overly-flowery bit of Shakespearean prose? You could just as easily argue that not nitpicking someone's spelling when it isn't pertinent to the topic at hand is a low social standard. So, should we hold you to that low social standard, or to a higher one?

You forgot to put a period at the end of that last sentence.

As for the issue of spelling in the UK, well...I'll let Rex Harrison make a salient point in that regard:

I did, I saw it after I posted and decided "that literally doesn't matter, there is no reason to edit that."

I got a minute into that video before I'd had enough of listening to someone prattle on about articulate speech, but I'm thoroughly confused as to why you're pointing at a movie made in 1964, based on a play from 1956, and set in 1910 as anything but a showcase of classism? From a reading of the synopsis it only really highlights that people that obsess over the perceived quality of one's speech are dreadful towards people that don't speak in a way that they deem 'correct.' It rarely ever paints the person doing it in a favourable light, meaningful inform the person it's done to of something they genuinely didn't know, and in this surrounding is 100% immaterial. You understood what they meant, the spelling is even a valid spelling in English, it has achieved everything language is meant to. Pointing out that they dared use an additional 'e' is about as relevant as a cow's opinion, it's moo

You're in a disagreement with someone and saw what you judged to be an error of English to be low hanging fruit to snipe at them.

I make no apologies for any emotional trauma caused by my deliberate omission of a period.

 

[Alzrius]

I interchangeably use American and British English for a variety of reasons, I was raised heavily on American media, I frequently read things written by Americans, and I have to write in American English for my job... which is writing. Flip-flopping between the two doesn't invalidate whichever I use second, nor quite frankly, does it matter.

It apparently matters to you a lot, given that you're intent on continuing this. I'm not sure why you think your personal experiences are indicative of anything for anyone else, but in this case you seem to be asserting that there's no such thing as a misspelling if some version of a word happens to be what's used in some other culture. Which is an...interesting take. Inaccurate, but certainly interesting.

One is being pedantic about spell mechanics for a reason, and being transparent about it to boot, the other is being pedantic about a person just talking. And if you're on a quest to hold people to high standards regarding use of language, I have bad news for you about how languages actually function. Or perhaps I might have missed where we are speaking as if verbalising an overly-flowery bit of Shakespearean prose? You could just as easily argue that not nitpicking someone's spelling when it isn't pertinent to the topic at hand is a low social standard. So, should we hold you to that low social standard, or to a higher one?

Ah yes, the old "language is fluid, so nothing is ever really wrong" bit. Yeah, no, trying to avail yourself of that idea so as to deny that there are any misspellings at all is the lowest of low standards, and not one that you can refute to try and invert the very idea of what standards mean. As for "low social standards," this entire digression that you've introduced and are continuing to run with suggests that perhaps you should practice what you preach, as you've managed to take a minor point (which you were, in fact, wrong about) and derail an entire thread with it.

I did, I saw it after I posted and decided "that literally doesn't matter, there is no reason to edit that."

So you decided that how other people use language matters, but not your own.

I got a minute into that video before I'd had enough of listening to someone prattle on about articulate speech, but I'm thoroughly confused as to why you're pointing at a movie made in 1964, based on a play from 1956, and set in 1910 as anything but a showcase of classism?

It's called "British humour," with the extra "u" and everything. I thought that you would appreciate that.

From a reading of the synopsis it only really highlights that people that obsess over the perceived quality of one's speech are dreadful towards people that don't speak in a way that they deem 'correct.'

Irony, thy name be DorkForge. (How's that for Shakespearean?)

You're in a disagreement with someone and saw what you judged to be an error of English to be low hanging fruit to snipe at them.

And you made an entire post about it. Multiple posts, in fact.

I make no apologies for any emotional trauma caused by my deliberate omission of a period.

Well, I did laugh so hard that I almost burst into tears.

 

[Kobold Stew]

So, relevant to this thread:

ASHEN FRONTIERS, a 3pp update inspired by Dark Sun, has just been announced: here.

Beowulf, by the same author, was great.

 

[SteveC]

So, relevant to this thread:

ASHEN FRONTIERS, a 3pp update inspired by Dark Sun, has just been announced: here.

Beowulf, by the same author, was great.

This is really cool. Liking that it will be for Pathfinder 2 as well. Thanks for the post and heads-up.

 

[Irlo]

@DorkForge @Alzrius

It’s just a typo, folks.

 

[Alzrius]

@DorkForge @Alzrius

It’s just a typo, folks.

A typo indeed, and certainly not worth an entire back-and-forth over. At this point, I'm willing to let bygones be bygones so we can all get back to discussing gaming.

 

[Vaalingrade]

My opinion is before allowing the cancelation

You do know we don't have any right or ability to force them to make new material for the setting or license it out to people, right?

No one here is going to 'allow' anything.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Sorry, but we could fix a solution sooner if we don't try to talk like a moral authority scolding to shows a different opinion. If we want to stop the bigotry, the hate-speech and those things, then the coherence demands to show respect for the human dignity.

I can't be convived when any body doesn't show enough respect. Convincing is not about forcing others to say you are right.

How to explain it? For example I have got my reasons to explain because Ixalan can be potentially ofensive and politically correct, at least in the eyes of a future generation. If I want to expose my position, I should use an asertive tone. Other example: the character David in the 8th episode 1st Season "When we are in need" of the teleserie "The last of us" is offensive, really offensive. It is not only irritating, but very outrageous because it is an attack against a community what is suffering psychological and physical attacks in different places of the world, and now in a far past, but even in the last years, in the present. But being right is not enough. I have to take care with my words because if I cause the image I am too radical, then I will can to help to fix nothing at all. We have to use an assertive and moderate tone. We need social skills as the diplomacy and the empathy.

I want to know the difference between something can be offensive for the most of the population, or only offensive for a little but radical group who causes a lot of noise.

And you can't help to create a better world for everybody if you forget the respect for the human dignity, the core of our rights as people. Without the respect for the human dignity we can become into monster like those mercyless princes and nobles from "Game of Thrones".

To talk with true moral authority before you have to earn the trust by the others. Do you remember the Sgt Hartman in the movie "the metalic jacket"? My grandfather was in the Spanish civil war. In the real battlefiel if an official talked like this to his soldiers.. when these lost the saint patience, then these could make "it look like an accident".

Be diplomatic, be assertive, show respect, and the others will be willing to keep listening you.

I haven't to foce them any thing. It is an IP with a great potential value, and if they don't use, they will be losing money. It is not a project to be closed, but they have to find a better way. They could earn more money if they could find a viable solution instead surrending too soon.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And you can't help to create a better world for everybody if you forget the respect for the human dignity

By promoting the theme park experience of people owning other people.

 

[Zardnaar]

By promoting the theme park experience of people owning other people.

Including things like slavery doesn't promote it.

How its executed matters.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Including things like slavery doesn't promote it.

How its executed matters.

Apparently, having slavery as a thing is a literal selling point for some people?

 

[Zardnaar]

Apparently, having slavery as a thing is a literal selling point for some people?

Not specifically for me but it does fall into the post apocalyptic brutal type world.

I play Fallout 4 for example. It's R18. Making it PG or PG13 kinda defeats the point of the game. Same with Saints Row or Grand Theft auto.

I also play Stellaris a sandbox 4X grand strategy game. You can outright play evil in that including genocidal.

Eg space skynet, borg, tyranids, slavers etc.

Do you watch movies like Schindlers List, war movies, Starship Troopers, Terminator 2 and enjoy them? How about Aliens, M
ad Max reboot?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

By promoting the theme park experience of people owning other people.

It is really sad if you believe it is a "theme park experience". Then with the same logic we couldn't play games set in the second world war against the nazis, or in the American civil war for the fight against slavery. Can't we play "the Mask of the Red Death" because the British empire did a lot of horrible things? Are we going to cancel "GIJoe: the American hero" because people from the real life suffered terrorist attacks? Or a episode of "Law&Order" where the criminal group catchs illegal inmigrants for forced works. Are we going to cancel all old far west movies what showed Northamerican indigenous?

Are we being too frivoulous, or are you being too radical and extremist?

Do you believe all the movies about the Spanish civil war are a "theme park experience"? There is a movie about the Cristero war in Mexico for the begining of the XX century. Should this be cancelled? Crime in Detroit is real. Are we going to cancel the cartoons of Robocop? There is a Spanish movie "Un Dios prohibido" (a forbidden God) about the seminar of Barbastro, completely terminated for the Spanish civil war. Are you going to say it to be a "theme park experience"? Do you say to be a "theme park experencie" the movie about the crusades "the Kingdom of the Heaven" or "the name of the rose"? What if a Blackafrican in front of your faces says the movie "the Woman King" should be cancelled, because in the real life the Dahomey amazons not only were practically slaves, but also they launched raids against the neighbours to catch slaves. That movie tells them to be anti-slavery, but this is totally false.

Do you say to be a "theme park experencie" the slavery showed in other D&D worlds? For example the scarlet brotherhood in Greyhawk, but also the gnolls, the drows, the illithid, the duergars..

Would you say "theme park experencie" speculative fiction about future distopian dictatorships? For example cyberpunk or V of Vendetta. Let's imagine in the next two years there is a new expansion of New Capena where the citizens start a rebellion against a new dictatorship, and one of the first actions by the resistance is to free innocent people (for example soldiers prisons of war who tried to stop the invasion) punished with forced works (practically state slavery). Would you ask the cancellation?

My ancenstors knew what it was to be attacked by pirates who searched slaves. Someones say there were more Europeans slavered by the Muslims than Blackafricans sent to Northamerica. Should I hold a grudge against Turkish people because Otoman empire did horrible things? The famous pirate Barbarrosa was not English, but Otoman. Didn't you know it?

If I was a child whose pet was brutally killed by a mad man wearing a jacket with the logo of Oakland Golden Grizzlies, should I hate all the people who wore a jacket with the same logo?

Do you agree about the censorship of the teleserie "Dukes of Hazzard" because the car showed the confederate flag?

Should be cancelled the 1939 movie "the Real Glory", with Gary Cooper, about the moro rebellion in Philipines?

Is your criteria based in the good sense?

 

[zedturtle]

So, relevant to this thread:

ASHEN FRONTIERS, a 3pp update inspired by Dark Sun, has just been announced: here.

Beowulf, by the same author, was great.

Today we’ve updated our website (www.ashenfrontiers.com) with information about the two game systems Ashen Frontiers will support, and provided a preview of the six classes for the game!

 

[Vaalingrade]

It is really sad if you believe it is a "theme park experience".

It's a trivializing it so as to be wallpaper and a cheap nod to Howard. Slavery and the suffering of slaves serves no other purpose than titillation and genre coding. DS has nothing to say about slavery; it's just using it for effect at maximum 90's edgelordery.

And frankly, the fact that this is all is EVER is in D&D; just some cheap turbo edge for the backstories of any species they're too lazy to write a real backstory for. If DS was 'the Slavery One', at least it would have a claim to novelty, but D&D has an addiction to slavery so hard, the fan outcry over the mere idea of maybe not having slavery literally all over the place to the point that per capita it is the actual most populace social system in most D&D worlds is a clear withdrawal system.

Also, yes, we could do with less than 50% WWII content in the FPS world. Most gamers have stormed Normandy Beach more often than they're washed their legs.

 

[Gradine]

It's a trivializing it so as to be wallpaper and a cheap nod to Howard. Slavery and the suffering of slaves serves no other purpose than titillation and genre coding. DS has nothing to say about slavery; it's just using it for effect at maximum 90's edgelordery.

And frankly, the fact that this is all is EVER is in D&D; just some cheap turbo edge for the backstories of any species they're too lazy to write a real backstory for. If DS was 'the Slavery One', at least it would have a claim to novelty, but D&D has an addiction to slavery so hard, the fan outcry over the mere idea of maybe not having slavery literally all over the place to the point that per capita it is the actual most populace social system in most D&D worlds is a clear withdrawal system.

Also, yes, we could do with less than 50% WWII content in the FPS world. Most gamers have stormed Normandy Beach more often than they're washed their legs.

Normandy : WWII FPS Games :: Loose Pearls Scattering Across the Pavement : Batman Movies

 

[Vaalingrade]

Normandy : WWII FPS Games :: Loose Pearls Scattering Across the Pavement : Batman Movies

My favorite one is the one where Chill apparently gets Martha's pearls stuck in the slide of his pistol somehow.