D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In terms of the actual visual art? Yes, WotC is producing the top of the line visual media, and have since before they bought TSR.

Art is subjective. Some people like the work WotC does in that area, others don't. Personally I like a lot of the Magic art, but dislike a lot of the D&D art. Of course, art is a low priority for me in games anyway.

 

[Maxperson]

Wait... There are people of Athasian descent being chosen to wirte Dark Sun books before those who are actually living in Athas and knowledgeable of its culture?

Either slavery is an issue due to real life concerns or it isn't. If it is, then people whose ancestors were slaves could be found to write it. If it's not, then there's no good reason for it not to be remade with slavery in it. They don't need to be Athasian any more than anyone making a D&D module has had to be elvish or dwarvish.

 

[Maxperson]

After seeing their releases for 5th edition, do you believe that ALL THE PEOPLE who say they have no problem with new Dark Sun product would not go back on their word and harshly criticize WOTC's 5e Dark Sun book?


Because I think many will.

Not because of slavery, but rather because it is a crappy setting book, assuming they treat it like FR or Spelljammer, rather than Theros or Eberron. If they make junk, it will be criticized for being junk.

 

[Parmandur]

He'd change a lot of it and many old Dark Sun fans will complain.


Exactly. It's a no-win. So they are shelving it.

"Many" might be a strong word.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh recent history is still very much relevant especially when it comes to socio-economic status, opportunities ,etc. Who decides what's "balanced"... let me guess the same people who benefitted from the imbalance that existed before?

It doesn't take a minority to recognize what equal is.

No... scraps is a very relevant analogy when we are talking a single book out of the entire 5e line that has echoes of other cultures and ethnic groups in it. And there's still a problem that it was an all PoC project.

Not by very many. You're rejecting the crazy individuals who are going to be upset that a white japanese person wrote something on japanese culture, but you aren't rejecting the same individuals who have a problem with Radiant Citadel. That's inconsistent.

 

[Minigiant]

Not because of slavery, but rather because it is a crappy setting book, assuming they treat it like FR or Spelljammer, rather than Theros or Eberron. If they make junk, it will be criticized for being junk.

Dark Sun's biggest problem is racism not slavery. But I digress.

Dark Sun is an 90s edgelord setting created at a time when you could paint your setting with anything and not get criticisms.

It's 2023. Edgelord nonsense won't sell like back then AND will get criticism. And WOTC makes light weak setting books and are not willing to do the work to modernize Dark Sun.

That's the problem.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn't say it was your idea... and I didn't claim excessive wokeness in my post only that wokeness was readily trotted out (as opposed to ANY other reason) the Radiant Citadel succeeded and caused no backlash.

No... scraps is a very relevant analogy when we are talking a single book out of the entire 5e line that has echoes of other cultures and ethnic groups in it. And there's still a problem that it was an all PoC project.

I'm confused. Is there a problem or isn't there?

 

[Minigiant]

"Many" might be a strong word.

I was being nice.
Most will complain.

Looks at Ravenloft
Most.

 

[Parmandur]

Art is subjective. Some people like the work WotC does in that area, others don't. Personally I like a lot of the Magic art, but dislike a lot of the D&D art. Of course, art is a low priority for me in games anyway.

There is a subjective element to the appreciation of art, but it cannot be denied that it is an area where WotC invests heavily, and diversely.

 

[Parmandur]

I was being nice.
Most will complain.

Looks at Ravenloft
Most.

Ravenloft was a pretty good example of how "many" is a strong word. They was bellyaching from some corners...but not "many."

 

[Minigiant]

Ravenloft was a pretty good example of how "many" is a strong word. They was bellyaching from some corners...but not "many."

I mean Dark Sun is much worse than Ravenloft.

 

[Parmandur]

I mean Dark Sun is much worse than Ravenloft.

Sure: doesn't mean it can't be made to work, and given the right people pushing for it in time it probavly will.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ravenloft was a pretty good example of how "many" is a strong word. They was bellyaching from some corners...but not "many."

And no matter how much I and some others dislike the new Ravenloft, its existence allowed DMsGuild to make many better (IMO) Ravenloft products, many of which I liked and spent money on. Why can't Dark Sun be allowed the same courtesy?

 

[Irlo]

The entire thread was about gaming materials, i.e. controversial content in such materials. That some people (including you) saw fit to extend that topic to include "bigoted nonsense" is a very clear indicator of how "controversial content" was viewed in terms of gaming materials.

Yeah, no. That the people against controversial content spun that out to try and include that particular example as being indicative of what said content included is all the proof you could need that claims of moral corruption were being put on the table. I can understand not wanting to think of it in that manner, but it is an accurate representation of the position that you and others took in that thread.

In hopes of leaving this on a more positive note, I'll just say that you've made a number of inaccurate inferences that have led you to misrepresent my position.

Secondly, leaving aside issues surrounding the correct identification of such tropes, and any discussion of any inherent moral issues they have, the idea that one can cast judgment on them without actually impugning the people writing them is a distinction that is lost more often than not. Even if you cite the creators as "well intentioned, but ignorant" or something like that, it's still casting judgment on their character, creating a chilling effect with contributes to a climate of fear which is ultimately to the detriment of the community. Saying "it doesn't happen" ignores that coded language and dogwhistling are things.

That distinction might frequently be lost (by either the creator whose work is being judged or by the one criticizing the work) but it's an important distinction. Being able to analyze and criticize cultural elements included in RPGs and fiction -- elements that are often included in creative work without due consideration and thoughtfulness -- without attacking people has and will continue to lead to more meaningful, more diverse creative works.

 

[Parmandur]

And no matter how much I and some others dislike the new Ravenloft, its existence allowed DMsGuild to make many better (IMO) Ravenloft products, many of which I liked and spent money on. Why can't Dark Sun be allowed the same courtesy?

I think im time it will, and if it does it will be because of someone like Ajit George. But it's not easy, since Dark Sun is a barrel of huge issues as is.

 

[Zardnaar]

Once again somewhere in the middle. Products like Radiant Citadel don't bother me whatsoever. A new product dan do whatever it likes and I have no problem catering to fans desires of whatever they want as long as I get some suger occasionally as well. I don't bed all of the suger all if tge time.

Diversity to me means variety.

The edgelord stuff in Darksun can be toned down or ignored. I'm not opposed to new stuff being added into Darksun as long as it makes sense. Dragonborn as dray makes no sense to me a Dragonborn individual as a mutant due to the pristine tower does.

The genocide thing wasn't in the original boxed set. Easy enough to exclude or ignore the past is dark and mysterious.

That basically leaves slavery and the Muls as a big thing and you can't really retcon that away. Explicitly make it evil and to be fought against maybe but the original kinda already did that.

So yeah you could do it R-13-16 type a'la Mad Max. They won't though and it's understandable why.

For me you don't need to freeze Darksun in 1991 or whatever. It does need to be brutal, post apocalyptic and be somewhat faithful to the original eg defiling, survival, psionics, brutal, harsh. Which 5E is terrible at anyway so idk how to tweak that for Darksun anyway.

 

[Alzrius]

In hopes of leaving this on a more positive note, I'll just say that you've made a number of inaccurate inferences that have led you to misrepresent my position.

If you don't want to litigate that thread again, I'll concur not to, save only to add a closing note of my own to the effect of my disagreement with your assessment here.

That distinction might frequently be lost (by either the creator whose work is being judged or by the one criticizing the work) but it's an important distinction. Being able to analyze and criticize cultural elements included in RPGs and fiction -- elements that are often included in creative work without due consideration and thoughtfulness -- without attacking people has and will continue to lead to more meaningful, more diverse creative works.

I don't deny that it's an important distinction to be made; I assert only that the distinction is frequently not made in contemporary discourse surrounding these issues. Criticism and critique, and the debate surrounding such things, is good and should continue. But I frequently see it perverted into cases of moral grandstanding, mistaking outrage for virtue and allowing that to set the tone which in turn guides development.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think im time it will, and if it does it will be because of someone like Ajit George. But it's not easy, since Dark Sun is a barrel of huge issues as is.

Who's Ajit George?

 

[Parmandur]

Who's Ajit George?

The designer who headed Radiant Citadel, and who has been stating on social media he would love to modernize Dark Sun.

 

[Scribe]

Who's Ajit George?

Wiki.

Writing and game design[edit]​

George is the creator, project co-lead, and writer for Journeys through the Radiant Citadel (2022),[14][13][3] the “first anthology of D&D adventures to be written entirely by Black and brown authors".[15][16] He was previously a contributing writer on another Dungeons & Dragons sourcebook, Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft (2021).[17][4][18] The committee of the Diana Jones Award in 2022 highlighted that George "has been the first writer of Indian origin to write Indian-inspired material for a number of games, including Dungeons & Dragon's Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft".[19] Journeys through the Radiant Citadel was nominated for the Nebula Award for Best Game Writing in March 2023.[6]

George has also written for a variety of indie game companies including Bully Pulpit,[20] Thorny Games,[21][22] and Monte Cook Games.[23]

Along with being a writer, George is a diversity consultant, speaker, and activist in the gaming community.[24] In 2016, George helped Gen Con expand its Industry Insider Speakers program.[25] And in 2019, he created a POC training and mentorship program that connects game industry experts with POC professionals new to the industry. George also organized and led the first POC networking event at Big Bad Con in 2019.[26]