• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era. I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to...

Status
Not open for further replies.
darksuntrouble-1414371970.jpg

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don’t think that’s really true. All of the Dark Sun fans I know love 4e Dark Sun. A lot of them miss the Brom art, and a lot of them didn’t care for the revisions to Dray or the addition of Tieflings. But most agree that the Eladrin were actually a really cool addition, and it’s otherwise pretty much the same setting, rolled back to one of the most well-liked parts of the metaplot.

I'm not a mega Dark Sun nerd so there could be aspects of the fandom I don't know about but I have to second this. I only heard praise for 4E Dark Sun when it came out (and often from people who didn't really like 4E but were into Dark Sun, who felt this was one of the things they got right during the 4E era). I don't know what changes they made as I didn't read the books, but playing in a Dark Sun campaign it seemed good to me (possible the GM was including lore and mechanics that had been removed as he liked to kludge stuff and he was an old school GM).

Tieflings were generally contentious for older players I think. I think the GM who ran our 4E Dark Sun probably took them out as I don't remember them appearing in the campaign.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Back in the 4e day, I saw a bunch of DS fans keep saying they hated 4e Dark Sun and it's changes and lightening.

But I guess it may have been a vocal minority or people projecting 4E hate on it.

I've really learned to take what I see online with a grain of salt. It certainly occurs if you see it, but it often doesn't mean anything beyond 1 poster or a small circle of posters (you also never know if the ten tweets or ten posters you see, aren't just one person with multiple accounts). I find a pretty big disconnect between online conversation about games and offline conversation. Obviously online discussions are relevant and matter, or I wouldn't participate, but I have learned to scale back my sense of how much significance they have outside online environments.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I think it's more likely that they were and probably still are upset at the tieflings and Feywild being in their Dark Sun, but liked the general story of 4e Dark Sun. Those are not mutually exclusive positions to take.
The 4e Dark Sun Feywild is rad as hell though! I think even folks who were critical at the time have come around on that fact, even if they still don’t like the Tieflings and Dragonborn version of the Dray.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
None of which make it a focus of the setting. You can literally take out Mul's completely and Dark Sun will still feel the same.
WOTC can barely get through psionics.
There's no way he book doesn't have a new race option.
I've really learned to take what I see online with a grain of salt. It certainly occurs if you see it, but it often doesn't mean anything beyond 1 poster or a small circle of posters (you also never know if the ten tweets or ten posters you see, aren't just one person with multiple accounts). I find a pretty big disconnect between online conversation about games and offline conversation. Obviously online discussions are relevant and matter, or I wouldn't participate, but I have learned to scale back my sense of how much significance they have outside online environments.
I don't know how big the fandom who hated the 4e version. However I don't think the DS fandom is big enough to survive losing them or having a book with iffy online press.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Correct. But they also were already seen as problematic back then and got removed from the class roster in the Expanded and Revised Campaign Setting box.
Hot take: I don’t think templars as a playable class (or subclass or whatever) is inherently problematic. It should just be expected that any PC templars are rogue agents, working against their masters, much like how PC warlocks can hold pacts to evil deities.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
So the magic-uses IS with the group and will therefore be an issue. You can't always move up and there will often not be a way to move back and still see the enemy.
"And will therefore be an issue" in what regard? Not in combat; the times when you can't move up tend to be few and far between, and even then you can still move around enough so that the defiler will still be able to cast spells without friendlies being in the defiling radius. There usually aren't that many cramped hallways in Dark Sun campaigns.
There's a reason magic-users died a LOT in 1e/2e. Those tactics don't keep them alive. The safest place for the magic-user was in the middle of the group so that creatures couldn't get to the magic-user easily, and they still died pretty often. squishy and easy to hit while having low hit points makes it hard to stay alive.
The idea of keeping the wizard in the center of a densely-packed formation where the allied PCs kept the enemies from being able to reach the enemy was one of those things which worked better in theory than in practice, since it kept the group vulnerable to concentrated ranged attacks, AoE spells, etc. In practice, it was much more likely that the "tanks" would move in, and the ranged characters would fall back. Hence, the defiler's initiative penalty was more likely to serve as a mild debuff on enemies that got past the tank and moved in, which is why they were incentivized to play (along with their faster level progression).
It doesn't have a penalty. The group moved up to engage, right? If the enemy has a penalty, so does the party. Then the enemy moves up and kills the magic-user. Not to mention after the enemy moves up into his face, the magic-user has to actually win initiative in the first place in order to give the enemy a penalty and if he loses with creatures right up on him..........................dead magic-user. And on top of that, the enemy could still roll well and the magic-user poorly, also resulting in dead magic-user.

Relying on that penalty to stay alive isn't smart.
"Relying on that penalty to stay alive" is a mischaracterization on your part; no one ever put it forward that it was a life-saving technique. It's a mild debuff that can be thrown out for free when casting a spell (and that's not taking into account the option to use defiling when preparing spells, rather than casting them, which granted a different bonus; see above). A lot of the time it won't make a difference, but at least you have it available for the few times when it might.

While the defiling initiative penalty has the potential to inflict friendly-fire, that's the same as spells like fireball and lightning bolt; you still have to use it smartly within the scope of the tactical situation in which you find yourself. Likewise, while you do already need to have won initiative to bring it into play, that can still be a decisive factor depending on how soon after you an enemy would go. If you act on a count of 6, and the enemy acts on a count of 5, a -3 penalty can make all the difference if your nearest ally acts on a count of 3. Ideally, you wouldn't have to do that, because an enemy would never get that close to you, but quite often things weren't ideal.

The thing to remember is that preservers didn't have this option at all. Not only were they likely to be lower level than a defiler at the same XP, but they couldn't inflict an initiative penalty if things got bad and an enemy got close. In the example above, the preserver better hope whatever spell they cast at count 6 in the initiative is enough to finish off the enemy acting at count 5, because their ally at count 3 won't get to go until after the enemy does otherwise.

Being able to inflict a mild debuff for free when casting a spell is an incentive to play that character class; that remains true even if you have to be smart about when you make use of it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
"And will therefore be an issue" in what regard? Not in combat; the times when you can't move up tend to be few and far between, and even then you can still move around enough so that the defiler will still be able to cast spells without friendlies being in the defiling radius. There usually aren't that many cramped hallways in Dark Sun campaigns.
Right, which is why that's a failing tactic. Monsters move a hell of a lot faster than PCs do, so they will be up on that magic-user lickity split and he's dead. Unless he's protected in the middle of the group. You use that tactic my game and you will need a steady stream of new defilers. It's a bad tactic for Dark Sun.
where the allied PCs kept the enemies from being able to reach the enemy was one of those things which worked better in theory than in practice, since it kept the group vulnerable to concentrated ranged attacks, AoE spells, etc. In practice, it was much more likely that the "tanks" would move in, and the ranged characters would fall back. Hence, the defiler's initiative penalty was more likely to serve as a mild debuff on enemies that got past the tank and moved in, which is why they were incentivized to play (along with their faster level progression).

"Relying on that penalty to stay alive" is a mischaracterization on your part; no one ever put it forward that it was a life-saving technique. It's a mild debuff that can be thrown out for free when casting a spell (and that's not taking into account the option to use defiling when preparing spells, rather than casting them, which granted a different bonus; see above). A lot of the time it won't make a difference, but at least you have it available for the few times when it might.
A minor debuff isn't anything close to incentive when you can't cast spells in a city, town, with NPCs, etc. That limitation alone is incentive NOT to play a defiler, especially if the initiative penalty is minor.
The thing to remember is that preservers didn't have this option at all. Not only were they likely to be lower level than a defiler at the same XP, but they couldn't inflict an initiative penalty if things got bad and an enemy got close. In the example above, the preserver better hope whatever spell they cast at count 6 in the initiative is enough to finish off the enemy acting at count 5, because their ally at count 3 won't get to go until after the enemy does otherwise.
Right. They just had the option to cast spells all over the place. A preserver could sneak in a spell behind his friends and use it in populated areas. The defiler just sat and twiddled his thumbs being useless.
 

Hot take: I don’t think templars as a playable class (or subclass or whatever) is inherently problematic. It should just be expected that any PC templars are rogue agents, working against their masters, much like how PC warlocks can hold pacts to evil deities.

People will have different reasons for playing evil characters. Personally I want an interesting setting, with the good abd the bad, and just let groups navigate how they want to handle that stuff themselves.
 

I don't know how big the fandom who hated the 4e version. However I don't think the DS fandom is big enough to survive losing them or having a book with iffy online press.

On that I have no real idea. You may well be correct. Dark Sun was always one of the more respected settings from the 2E era and it always had its fans but like all the settings from that period, except maybe Forgotten Realms, it was one corner of the 2E fanbase. I was into Ravenloft and that was much the same. In terms of viability, I am not sure. They probably wouldn't be looking at making it a game every single 6E player plays, but more as a game to bring Dark Sun fans to 6E (many of whom I imagine play other systems)
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top