D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[Alzrius]

Right, which is why that's a failing tactic. Monsters move a hell of a lot faster than PCs do, so they will be up on that magic-user lickity split and he's dead. Unless he's protected in the middle of the group. You use that tactic my game and you will need a steady stream of new defilers. It's a bad tactic for Dark Sun.

I'm not sure that "monsters move [...] faster than PCs do" is the truism that you're making it out to be here. While there are certainly some monsters which have better speeds than PCs, there are a lot which don't; spellcasters, ranged attackers, and "tank"-style monsters tend to be slower, as a general rule, and that's not getting into issues of plant monsters or other creatures which are relatively stationary.

Even then, it's not a given that they'll go after the mage first; the idea that they'll disengage and run rings around melee characters to get to the wizard isn't going to occur to non-intelligent and low-intelligence creatures. Even creatures which have intelligence might have some other overriding impetus regarding who they attack; undead are notorious for this, in terms of preferentially targeting characters who disturb their remains, take a favored item, remind them of someone they hated in life, etc.

All of which is to say, the idea that the monsters zip around the field to avoid the tanks and target the wizards is another one of those ideas which comes up on forums and other theory-crafting websites a lot more than it does in reality. All combats are situational, and most monsters can't just run rings around the fighters and target the wizards with relative impunity unless ever single square around the wizard is clustered with allied characters; that doesn't work against ranged attacks, reach weapons, and AoE spells/powers anyway.

A minor debuff isn't anything close to incentive when you can't cast spells in a city, town, with NPCs, etc. That limitation alone is incentive NOT to play a defiler, especially if the initiative penalty is minor.

To be clear, defilers can cast spells in settlements and around NPCs, if they're prepared to face the consequences; the thing to remember is that these consequences also exist for preservers. The fiction and in-game text makes it clear that most ordinary characters recognize little-to-no difference between defilers and preservers (especially since preservers are presented as having the option to defile anyway); even then, many defilers are presumed to operate at the behest of the Sorcerer-Kings, whereas preservers are typically marked as outlaws and enemies of those same rulers. So in that regard, defilers are no more disincentivized to play than preservers.

Right. They just had the option to cast spells all over the place. A preserver could sneak in a spell behind his friends and use it in populated areas. The defiler just sat and twiddled his thumbs being useless.

As outlined above, the preserver didn't have that option any more than the defiler did, and quite possibly less. Remember, preservers still took life energy from nearby plants; they just didn't kill all of them and scorch the soil. If the idea that they'd "sneak in a spell" means that no one would notice, the flavor text still calls for them harming the local flora, it just wasn't lethal. Conversely, if you're standing in a building or on a cobbled street, the radius of ashes won't even be visible to anyone, so it's not like you'll be immediately identified as a defiler to begin with.

 

[Bedrockgames]

WOTC can barely get through psionics.

Honestly this was always the biggest hurdle for Dark Sun that I recall. Psionics has never been great in D&D (at least in the editions I am familiar with, maybe they improved it in later ones). And you needed to use it for Dark Sun, which added a level of complexity some GMs didn't like. It was fitting to the setting though, so I think it worked. It just meant there was a new subsystem you had to know (maybe they included enough in the Dark Sun boxed set, I can't remember, but I think you needed the complete psionics handbook to run it properly, which was also an additional cost).

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not sure that "monsters move [...] faster than PCs do" is the truism that you're making it out to be here. While there are certainly some monsters which have better speeds than PCs, there are a lot which don't; spellcasters, ranged attackers, and "tank"-style monsters tend to be slower, as a general rule, and that's not getting into issues of plant monsters or other creatures which are relatively stationary.

Even then, it's not a given that they'll go after the mage first; the idea that they'll disengage and run rings around melee characters to get to the wizard isn't going to occur to non-intelligent and low-intelligence creatures. Even creatures which have intelligence might have some other overriding impetus regarding who they attack; undead are notorious for this, in terms of preferentially targeting characters who disturb their remains, take a favored item, remind them of someone they hated in life, etc.

All of which is to say, the idea that the monsters zip around the field to avoid the tanks and target the wizards is another one of those ideas which comes up on forums and other theory-crafting websites a lot more than it does in reality. All combats are situational, and most monsters can't just run rings around the fighters and target the wizards with relative impunity unless ever single square around the wizard is clustered with allied characters; that doesn't work against ranged attacks, reach weapons, and AoE spells/powers anyway.

To be clear, defilers can cast spells in settlements and around NPCs, if they're prepared to face the consequences; the thing to remember is that these consequences also exist for preservers. The fiction and in-game text makes it clear that most ordinary characters recognize little-to-no difference between defilers and preservers (especially since preservers are presented as having the option to defile anyway); even then, many defilers are presumed to operate at the behest of the Sorcerer-Kings, whereas preservers are typically marked as outlaws and enemies of those same rulers. So in that regard, defilers are no more disincentivized to play than preservers.

As outlined above, the preserver didn't have that option any more than the defiler did, and quite possibly less. Remember, preservers still took life energy from nearby plants; they just didn't kill all of them and scorch the soil. If the idea that they'd "sneak in a spell" means that no one would notice, the flavor text still calls for them harming the local flora, it just wasn't lethal. Conversely, if you're standing in a building or on a cobbled street, the radius of ashes won't even be visible to anyone, so it's not like you'll be immediately identified as a defiler to begin with.

They aren't monsters if they

Spoiler: play by the well understood rules of people

That's what makes them monsters.

 

[Charlaquin]

Honestly this was always the biggest hurdle for Dark Sun that I recall. Psionics has never been great in D&D (at least in the editions I am familiar with, maybe they improved it in later ones). And you needed to use it for Dark Sun, which added a level of complexity some GMs didn't like. It was fitting to the setting though, so I think it worked. It just meant there was a new subsystem you had to know (maybe they included enough in the Dark Sun boxed set, I can't remember, but I think you needed the complete psionics handbook to run it properly, which was also an additional cost).

Another hot take: Dark Sun doesn’t need psionics. Like, it would certainly be a big change to remove them, but I don’t think it would hurt the setting’s thematic core.

 

[Maxperson]

To be clear, defilers can cast spells in settlements and around NPCs, if they're prepared to face the consequences; the thing to remember is that these consequences also exist for preservers.

This is not true. Defiling is far more hated than preserving is. Consequences will hit the defiler far more often and generally to a greater degree than preservers. And you keep ignoring the fact that preservers can still sneak spellcasting in town where the defiler can't because he can't hide the pain and effect on life. Both have it hard. Defilers have it harder.

"In most cases, defilers are outlaws (even in the eyes of the corrupt sorcerer-kings), so they keep their magical abilities under cover. Unlike preservers who have a loose organization in their underground, outlaw defilers tend to be loners, keeping their ambitions and powers to themselves."

There is no such language under the preserver class.

"...druids tend to be very apprehensive about wizards who venture into their realms, as they might turn out to be defilers."

Defilers, not preservers. Druids also get bonus xp for defeating defilers, but not preservers.

The fiction and in-game text makes it clear that most ordinary characters recognize little-to-no difference between defilers and preservers (especially since preservers are presented as having the option to defile anyway);

Preservers have no option to defile. They literally cannot do it. Both the mechanics and the lore below support that.

"All wizards must decide at the beginning of their careers whether they are trying to work with nature or without regard for it. In Dark Sun, this means a wizard must be either a defiler or a preserver."

Once you make the choice, you are done with the other type of magic. That is the only lore about wizards having a choice that is in the boxed setting. You have to make it when you learn magic and are stuck with your choice from level 1 onward.

even then, many defilers are presumed to operate at the behest of the Sorcerer-Kings, whereas preservers are typically marked as outlaws and enemies of those same rulers. So in that regard, defilers are no more disincentivized to play than preservers.

This is actually false. They are all outlaws except those few who work for the sorcerer kings.

"Defilers

Cities are the hardest places for inexperienced Defilers to survive. Not only are they hunted by the agents of the monarch, but few citizens will provide them with refuge or assistance-in addition to fearing the king's wrath, most people resent what the Defiler's magic does to the land. For this reason, most Defilers lead solitary lives of constant apprehension, associating only with the shady elves who sell them spell components."

Remember, preservers still took life energy from nearby plants; they just didn't kill all of them and scorch the soil.

They didn't kill any of them. This is from the class itself.

"The preserver is a wizard of the old, established school of magic. In the give and take of spell casting, preservers have mastered the balance. A preserver's magical spells are cast in harmony with nature. When a preserver casts a spell, there is no damage to the nearby environment."

 

[Alzrius]

This is not true. Defiling is far more hated than preserving is. Consequences will hit the defiler far more often and generally to a greater degree than preservers. And you keep ignoring the fact that preservers can still sneak spellcasting in town where the defiler can't because he can't hide the pain and effect on life. Both have it hard. Defilers have it harder.

You yourself have ignored that defiling isn't immediately noticeable in an urban area, where they're likely to be standing on a floor, road, etc. which hides the circle of ash that appears, as well as there not necessarily being any plants in the immediate vicinity. The city-states and even several smaller settlements are among the best places for a defiler to hide, compared to the wilderness.

"In most cases, defilers are outlaws (even in the eyes of the corrupt sorcerer-kings), so they keep their magical abilities under cover. Unlike preservers who have a loose organization in their underground, outlaw defilers tend to be loners, keeping their ambitions and powers to themselves."

There is no such language under the preserver class.

Again, you're overlooking that the preservers are treated as threats to the Sorcerer-Kings, which was described in the very first adventure and the very first novel for the setting. Likewise, most NPCs aren't going to know that a character is one and not the other; insofar as they're aware, a spellcaster might be a defiler and might be one of the ones who works for the Sorcerer-King (that's why, in the text you quoted, it says "most" and not "all").

"...druids tend to be very apprehensive about wizards who venture into their realms, as they might turn out to be defilers."

Defilers, not preservers. Druids also get bonus xp for defeating defilers, but not preservers.

It says right in there that they're going to be apprehensive about wizards in general, not just defilers. If you're playing a defiler or a preserver, you can expect the local druids to be giving you the stink-eye no matter what kind of arcane magic you use.

Preservers have no option to defile. They literally cannot do it. Both the mechanics and the lore below support that.

Neither the lore nor the mechanics supports your statements, here. Not only does Sadira defile several times over the course of the Prism Pentad novels despite being a preserver, but the rules for preservers using defiling magic is explicitly covered in Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas (affiliate link); see "Switching Roles," pg. 29-32.

This is actually false. They are all outlaws except those few who work for the sorcerer kings.

"Defilers

Cities are the hardest places for inexperienced Defilers to survive. Not only are they hunted by the agents of the monarch, but few citizens will provide them with refuge or assistance-in addition to fearing the king's wrath, most people resent what the Defiler's magic does to the land. For this reason, most Defilers lead solitary lives of constant apprehension, associating only with the shady elves who sell them spell components."

It's worth pointing out that this applies to preservers as well, who are all outlaws.

They didn't kill any of them.

At the GM's option, there's still a visible effect with regard to them losing life energy.

 

[Stormonu]

Blah, can we not clutter up the thread with the back and forth between Defile or Not Defile. Both are PC options and the defiling mechanics are trivial enough that a party can have members go either way without meaningful overall effect. We've got plenty of other things to complain about in the thread.

 

[Alzrius]

Blah, can we not clutter up the thread with the back and forth between Defile or Not Defile. Both are PC options and the defiling mechanics are trivial enough that a party can have members go either way without meaningful overall effect. We've got plenty of other things to complain about in the thread.

Fair enough.

@Maxperson since we're being asked to stop with this digression, let's say we take any further discussion of it to PMs, okay?

 

[Staffan]

I am fond of the elemental aechetypes of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire.

At the same time, the way these happen is generally as Soil, Lake, Wind, and Sunlight.

(Here Water as Lake includes rain, river, sea.)

Plant combines every element.

I was referring to the sourcebook "Earth, Air, Fire, and Water", which was sort of the Complete Priest's Handbook for Dark Sun. It had some neat stuff for Dark Sun priests (in 2e, "Priest" was a class group encompassing Cleric, Druid, and Templar), with clerics getting "Minor granted powers" to fill out between the big ones (IIRC, ignore element at 5th level and create element at 7th), and some much-needed additions to the various elemental spheres. However, the lore was in retrospect a bit of a loss for me, because it described the elemental spirits with whom clerics make pacts as desperate to restore the ecology of Athas, because as Athas is waning, so are they. In addition, Athas got its own version of para-elements and clerics dedicated to them: Sun = Fire + Air, Rain = Air + Water, Silt = Water + Earth, and Magma = Earth + Fire (OK, that last one is standard, but still). The para-elements other than Rain were described as being pro-defiling and anti-ecology: Sun doesn't want any forests or clouds in the way of its shining glory, and Silt wants the Sea of Silt to expand to encompass all of Athas (Magma's kind of passive though).

To me, this is bad because:

• It adds an unnecessary ethical dimension to elemental clerics. It's not that I have anything against Earth clerics teaching proper soil rotation techniques to maintain maximum fertility of the land, but I don't want that to be the only type of Earth cleric. Earth can be the fertile soil, or it can be the harsh mountain. Both are cool.
• It removes the previous association between Fire and Sun, by making Sun clerics opposed to Fire clerics (Sun clerics want no shade, Fire clerics want to restore forests so there's something to burn).
• It removes some of the typical "borderlands" druids could use to get access to two elemental spheres (Druids had Major access to the sphere of Cosmos and to the element primarily making up their Guarded Lands, and could possibly get Minor access to another sphere that was represented there to a lesser degree – "volcano" would be a typical cheat giving you fire and earth, but now that would be magma instead).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Another hot take: Dark Sun doesn’t need psionics. Like, it would certainly be a big change to remove them, but I don’t think it would hurt the setting’s thematic core.

I don’t know how hard core fans feel but for me it was one of the things that made it interesting and distinct from the standard fantasy settings. I do think psionics were kind of a pain in that edition so easier mechanics would be great. But an important part of the feel was having a system that functioned differently from magic and felt different from magic mechanically. I would say also adds to that post apocalyptic vibe