D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

I can scarcely believe what you wrote. What you're suggesting WotC do is engage in racial discrimination when it comes to hiring employees or contractors to reimagine Dark Sun. This would be far more problematic than anything published for Dark Sun in the 1990s. Here in the United States, it's fairly rare for race to be a bona fide occupational qualification for a job. WotC would just be opening themselves up to bad press and possibly litigation.

If Wizards of the Coast can figure out how to do a book with all BIPOC writers and artists last year with Journeys Through The Radiant Citadel, they can figure out how to do it for a Dark Sun reboot.

Where were the lawsuits on that one?

 

[James Gasik]

"Woohoo, I'm a racially superior slaver" isn't really what Dark Sun is about though. If you read through the narrative of the gazetteer in the boxed set there is a lot of hostility directed at the powerful, like the Sorcerer Kings (who are destroying the world to aggrandize themselves). Yes, you could play a slaver and you could say that, because slavers and slaves exist in the setting, but I don't think that was at all the intention of it.

Unfortunately, the truth won't matter; the people who would take offense to this, or use this as an excuse to attack the game won't be bothered by anything like facts.

"The Efreet looks like the Devil, thus D&D is about Devil worship!" -80's Karen, probably.

 

[MGibster]

If Wizards of the Coast can figure out how to do a book with all BIPOC writers and artists last year with Journeys Through The Radiant Citadel, they can figure out how to do it for a Dark Sun reboot.

Well, hey, I guess you're right. I'm pleasantly surprised I didn't hear a hugh and cry raised from the usual suspects.

 

[pemerton]

But how confident are you those games in question would stand up to twitter scrutiny if they secured a major publisher or if they attracted a broader conversation in the RPG community?

I don't know. And I don't really care - I mean, a controversy might be interesting to observe, but it wouldn't change the fact that I have these games available to play, and play both from time to time.

What I don't get is why there are posters lamenting the lack of good S&S RPGs who won't go and play and evangelise for good S&S RPGs. It confuses me.

 

[Hussar]

Well, to be honest your spin is at least as spinny as mine. The tact you've taken is definitely designed to make your rhetorical opponents seem like awful people for disagreeing with you.

And claiming that people who disagree with you either hate the hobby, hate gamers or are completely irrational is better? Repeated claims like this:

Unfortunately, the truth won't matter; the people who would take offense to this, or use this as an excuse to attack the game won't be bothered by anything like facts.

"The Efreet looks like the Devil, thus D&D is about Devil worship!" -80's Karen, probably.

where anyone who disagrees is lying or engaging in mistruths? Despite REPEATEDLY pointing to the fact that this has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with being "offended"?

Yeah, there's some spin going on here.

Or, how about "well, it's only one book, why get upset about one book" when it's never, ever "just one book"?

Right now, we've got https://www.kickstarter.com/project...hu-solitaire-gamebooks-by-steve-jackson-games Choose Cthulhu Gamebooks as a kickstarter. It's got over a thousand followers before it's even launched. We all know Lovecraft was a horrible person and that his writings are racist. This isn't up for debate. This is full on fact. How welcome do you think I feel in the hobby knowing that over a thousand people in the hobby want pay someone for Lovecraft's works?

It's never, ever "just one book". It's a never ending stream of books, movies, commentary, take your pick. It's listening to the guy at your table bitching because they cast black actors in Rings of Power to play Hobbits. It's the death by a thousand cuts. And it never, ever ends. It never stops. In only stops when we, as a fandom, step up and say, nope, that's not what we want in the hobby anymore.

Again, I'd much, much rather make the hobby inclusive. Which means that stuff that we did in the past? Yeah, we shouldn't probably do that anymore. Sword and Sandal fiction? That fiction that is grounded in layers upon layers of bigotry and misogyny? Yeah, maybe we can lay off that for a while. Because I'd rather not have to deal with it every single time I walk into a game store. Every single time I come on En World to talk. Every single time I go anywhere, I get told, in a thousand different ways, that I'm not really welcome in the hobby.

Well, y'know what? I've been a gamer almost since I could talk. I can't remember a time when I wasn't a gamer. And I want to share that with as many people as possible. So, again, I'm sorry that you might not get your Dark Sun. I'm sorry you might not get your Lovecraft. I'm sorry you might not get whatever thing you happen to want. But, at the end of the day, I don't care. I'd FAR rather be proud of the gamer community for taking a stand and being honestly inclusive.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And claiming that people who disagree with you either hate the hobby, hate gamers or are completely irrational is better? Repeated claims like this:


where anyone who disagrees is lying or engaging in mistruths? Despite REPEATEDLY pointing to the fact that this has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with being "offended"?

Yeah, there's some spin going on here.

Or, how about "well, it's only one book, why get upset about one book" when it's never, ever "just one book"?

Right now, we've got https://www.kickstarter.com/project...hu-solitaire-gamebooks-by-steve-jackson-games Choose Cthulhu Gamebooks as a kickstarter. It's got over a thousand followers before it's even launched. We all know Lovecraft was a horrible person and that his writings are racist. This isn't up for debate. This is full on fact. How welcome do you think I feel in the hobby knowing that over a thousand people in the hobby want pay someone for Lovecraft's works?

It's never, ever "just one book". It's a never ending stream of books, movies, commentary, take your pick. It's listening to the guy at your table bitching because they cast black actors in Rings of Power to play Hobbits. It's the death by a thousand cuts. And it never, ever ends. It never stops. In only stops when we, as a fandom, step up and say, nope, that's not what we want in the hobby anymore.

Again, I'd much, much rather make the hobby inclusive. Which means that stuff that we did in the past? Yeah, we shouldn't probably do that anymore. Sword and Sandal fiction? That fiction that is grounded in layers upon layers of bigotry and misogyny? Yeah, maybe we can lay off that for a while. Because I'd rather not have to deal with it every single time I walk into a game store. Every single time I come on En World to talk. Every single time I go anywhere, I get told, in a thousand different ways, that I'm not really welcome in the hobby.

Well, y'know what? I've been a gamer almost since I could talk. I can't remember a time when I wasn't a gamer. And I want to share that with as many people as possible. So, again, I'm sorry that you might not get your Dark Sun. I'm sorry you might not get your Lovecraft. I'm sorry you might not get whatever thing you happen to want. But, at the end of the day, I don't care. I'd FAR rather be proud of the gamer community for taking a stand and being honestly inclusive.

Well, if that's your line in the sand, and everybody on this side is an awful person for not agreeing with you, then I guess there's nothing left to discuss.

 

[pemerton]

@Hussar

I agree with you that a big part of this - maybe all of it - is how things are normalised in the hobby (and its associated genres).

One things that, in my mind at least, makes slavery different in Burning Wheel is that it is problematised - as one special case of the general fact that Burning Wheel is about putting every aspect of the character, and their backstory, under scrutiny and pressure in play.

In A Wicked Age is different in ethos from Burning Wheel, but I would also describe it as "non-complacent" S&S. The elements that its Oracles introduce into the fiction are there to be the subject matter of play, and will be challenged in the course of that.

The basic issue with a D&D version of Dark Sun, I think, is that D&D tends towards complacency. The least complacent version was 4e, and even it suffered in that respect in its treatment of Dark Sun - and the ways in which 4e move away from complacency also led to its commercial downfall.

 

[Hussar]

Well, if that's your line in the sand, and everybody on this side is an awful person for not agreeing with you, then I guess there's nothing left to discuss.

I see. So saying that those that disagree with you are liars and hate gamers is fine though.

Yeah. We’re done.

 

[MGibster]

We all know Lovecraft was a horrible person and that his writings are racist. This isn't up for debate. This is full on fact. How welcome do you think I feel in the hobby knowing that over a thousand people in the hobby want pay someone for Lovecraft's works?

Really though, it's way more than a thousand, right? Call of Cthulhu has been a constant presence in our hobby for the last 42 years earning numerous awards over multiple editions. Who knows how many gamers have spent their hard earned money on something with Lovecraft's fingerprints all over it?

I'm sorry you might not get whatever thing you happen to want. But, at the end of the day, I don't care. I'd FAR rather be proud of the gamer community for taking a stand and being honestly inclusive.

That seems fair. After all, at the end of the day, I don't really care if people enjoying Lovecraft's works makes you feel unwelcome.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I see. So saying that those that disagree with you are liars and hate gamers is fine though.

Yeah. We’re done.

That wasn't me, for the record.