[WotC_Logan] Why is Tiamat Huge?

[I'm A Banana]

Sure. But I suspect the number of people with the mini is significantly larger than those who will find the size change something so horrendous it prevents their use of Tiamat.

Meh. Speculation on how many people who have a Tiamat DDM mini woulmight d want to use that mini to fight against actual Tiamat at the end of their campaign is bound to be inaccurate. That's why I'd say that this is a wash. I can't (nor would I want to) show that people won't use Tiamat specifically because of her size, and you can't show that people will use Tiamat specifically because they have her old DDM mini. It's not really a point that can go anywhere.

I do know it'll stop ME from using her. So that's all I'm really griping about. I wish she was better. It's not the big deal that these four pages have really made it out to be. I do believe I've said it's not a big deal at least three times already. It's still a deal, and I have every right to point it out and mock it.

You do NOT get to remotely compare this situation to that - it is not just wrong, it is downright offensive.

Well, now we're debating the debate. I acknowledged it was hyperbolic. In the same post that I made the hyperbolic comparison, I mentioned how it would actually affect my game (to, you know, provide context).

The reason it was hyerbolic was mostly because "It's not a problem because you can fix it!" is a mantra that shuts down useful discussion about the actual problems. It tries to deny that there is a problem. It's something that has been thick on the floor, and it's not an acceptable defense to me, because most of the time, that's not the point. If I'm asking "How should I use Tiamat in my game at home?" it's the point. If I'm saying "It sucks that the designers made the game fit the minis rather than the other way around," it's not the point, it doesn't address the point, and it obscures the point, because there is still a problem, regardless of how easily I can fix it.

And I see the "But you can fix it!" defense so often that I am interested in making the point clearer by appealing to something a little more visceral. Kind of in the same way that Chuck Palahniuk goes for the visceral (though to a lesser degree than him most of the time. ).

Feel free to dislike the design choice they made. But you can't claim that the game is failing unless it is somehow so absolutely perfect as to appeal to 100% of all gamers - because, gamers being gamers, that is an absolutely impossible task.

I criticized the design choice they made. I don't think I ever claimed that the game is failing (or anything even remotely like that), or that the game has to appeal to all gamers (or, again, anything even remotely like that).

I said I had a problem with it and found it ridiculous that the design would go bass-ackwards like this for the sake of little plastic toys. Because of this, I'll probably go another 10 years without fighting Tiamat (like most people, I'd rather fit the square peg in the square hole than round off the edges so that it fits in the round hole). I'm pretty sure I drew the line at that. I'm critical of the process, but I haven't lost perspective, here.

I think that before 4e is over, we'll see some giant setpiece battle system, and that we'll also see next-to-no new Gargantuan creatures. In other words, this is a corner case (as I've said before) and I'm fairly likely there won't be many repeats, if any.

But it's still dumb that they made her Huge because of plastic logic, and that does mean the Draconomicon is a less valuable book for me because of it (still, as I've mentioned in the thread about it, one of my favorite 4e books so far).

 

[Remathilis]

This would sell.

Also, perhaps in the vein of those 80s cartoons that were created to sell me toys, they can create a new cartoon to sell kids D&D?

I mean, take a look at the success of something like Avatar: The Last Airbender. A D&D cartoon that was set up more like that, using terms and adventures from 4e's "MUST ACHIEVE BRAND IDENTITY" spasms (Nerath, Bael-Turath, Arkhosia) would be pretty amazing.

Imagine a party of five.

Human (Wizard), Dragonborn (Fighter), Elf (Ranger), Dwarf (Cleric), Halfling (Rogue).

Every week they go on action-packed adventures that lead them closer to discovering the Lair of Tiamat, who controls the dragons that menace them.

Three seasons, three tiers.

You'd probably have to make it a bit anime-lookin'.

You could probably sell that to Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network or at the very least to Jetix or Toon Disney. Kids are all about fantasy and swords and wizards and junk right now. If it's done up to the quality of something like Avatar, you'll probably get some pretty ardent fans.

Heck, I'd probably watch it.

You sold me. Make a couple of auxiliary heroes (tiefling warlock, warforged warlord) to appear and some cheif baddies (The Frost Giant Jarl, a Red Dragon, the King of the Orcs, Warduke) and you'd have a good long-running series.

In fact, it might look something like this.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You sold me. Make a couple of auxiliary heroes (tiefling warlock, warforged warlord) to appear and some cheif baddies (The Frost Giant Jarl, a Red Dragon, the King of the Orcs, Warduke) and you'd have a good long-running series.

I haven't seen Lodoss (I'm not a fan of how...cheap? the animation looks), but it's been good for the Sword World RPG. A solidly done D&D cartoon (with kid appeal, but not as sickeningly childish as the old cartoon) would rock the boxers.

And sell some minis, I bet.

 

[darjr]

Kamikaze Midget, I get you, this is a weird hobby anyway, it's built upon imagination and dreams. Those can be fragile. I don't agree with your level of angst over it, but I get it, and I do, at some level, agree that it's to bad.

I think it was a good thing for them to do. I will also miss the big giant miniatures, cause even though I think they are almost a joke as game pieces, I love them anyway.

And yes, I want the Tiamat play set.

 

[Remathilis]

I haven't seen Lodoss (I'm not a fan of how...cheap? the animation looks), but it's been good for the Sword World RPG. A solidly done D&D cartoon (with kid appeal, but not as sickeningly childish as the old cartoon) would rock the boxers.

And sell some minis, I bet.

Lodoss was some of the best Anime 1986 could buy ya.

Everything else is solid. I would love an actual D&D cartoon with that much seriousness behind it. No cheap gimmicks. No rubber-mask monsters. No CGI dragons and gimmicky voice actors. Solid. D&D. Animation.

Alas, I'm sure at this point any D&D cartoon coming down the pipeline that lacked Uni and stupid humor would re-ignite the D&D is Evil crowds, which is the LAST thing Hasbro would want.

But we can dream...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Lodoss was some of the best Anime 1986 could buy ya

Hey, you could be right. I didn't get into Anime until Cowboy Bebop won me over in college. I haven't given Lodoss a fair chance yet. Heck I just caught up with Evangelion and Akira this year, and those are practically the Bible of "quality anime."

Now I digress....

Yes, a serious D&D cartoon would be fantastic for D&D, for cartoons, and for Hasbro (who has no small experience with this kind of thing). It'd add fire to the "D&D is so Anime" crowd pretty quickly, but my view on that has always been "Anime is as acceptable a fantasy genre as Conan or the Grey Mouser!"

It's really a shame that 90% of the D&D-branded things outside of the game itself tend to suck so hard. It's like Blackleaf's Curse. She died and her ghost left this "all secondary media will be written by idiot chimps and coded by blind lemurs!" that only misses on NWN and PS:Torment.

If you really wanna sell some plastic, make me a good cartoon. Logan, if you're still paying attention, send it up the pipe.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

To hell with Gargantuan. I want a Collossal Tiamat, like the Epic Red Dragon. Screw practicallity.

While not every god figure should be that large, Tiamat is worth it since the 5 headed Chromatic is a classic D&D Trope.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Just to add a comment: I just discovered that the Monster Manual states that Tiamat takes the form of a colossal five headed chromatic dragon...

 

[avin]

Lodoss OVA is very good.

It's a simple D&D campaign with clerics, drow, elves, warriors... and the songs.... dude, the songs...

It's far more D&D than D&D movies.

 

[avin]

Heck I just caught up with Evangelion and Akira this year, and those are practically the Bible of "quality anime."

I disagree. Evangelion is FAR from canon anime. You could add Ghost in the Shell, both movie and series...

...and every Gihbli Studio animation such as Princess Mononoke. That's a masterwork, even if not too much adult...

Have you tried Rurouni Kenshin first OVA? I don't like Samurai X anime... but when I saw that OVA... "no point introducing myself to the death"... all that bloodshed and tragedy that's not on the normal serie.