[WotC_Logan] Why is Tiamat Huge?

[Remathilis]

The problem with that line is the price point. If you don't push it as a mini, but as a D&D action figure or whatever, you can sell it in more places.

Imagine a boxed set with a Gargantuan Tiamat and little action figures of Hank, Sheila, Presto, Eric, Bobby and Diana! Not unlike the recent Transformers Scene Packs that have human minis packed alongside the (actually transforming) robots:

Guess who makes those: Hasbro.

That's a bit of an apples : oranges comparison.

The Transformers scene packs have a lot more inherit value as an action figure. It can transform, and therefore has movable positionable parts. It also have a huge mega-million dollar movie and cartoon series to springboard off of, as well a enough name recognition in that 6-13 age demographic to make throwing in the figures candy to Yet Another Bumblebee.

I don't see a fair compassion to making a Tiamat with figures. The D&D cartoon is only known to a small group of devoted fans (and reviled by half of them) and (as I've said before) the amount made and expected amount purchased doesn't meet the high volume needed to make it at the same functionality and value as the Transformer scene pack.

The closest to what you're proposing would either be the Star Wars AT-AT for the SWM line or the Icingdeath/Drizzt Icons pack. Neither, AFAICT, sold well enough to warrant further expansion, and that's coming from one of the biggest merchandising juggernauts (SW) and some of the most famous D&D novels (Drizzt) of all time!

Sadly, unless The Rouse or Logan come out and tell me there is a new D&D Icon coming out, I'm going to assume your not going to see any further Gargantuan or Colossal minis.

 

[Mark]

pointing a finger and laughing at it in a public forum...

Choose that finger carefully, you may not get another chance.

 

[frankthedm]

WizKids - Mage Knight

Hell, I thought all true fans of the old Tiamat were using that bad boy for it.

The Mage Knight Apoc dragon was ~ok~, but IMHO the neck and head proportions were kinda bad. Would not mind getting one, but its not high on my priorities list. Still thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten about this model.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I think his point, and he can correct me if I"m wrong, is to make it a TOY and not a RPG accessory.

That's a bit of an apples : oranges comparison.

The Transformers scene packs have a lot more inherit value as an action figure. It can transform, and therefore has movable positionable parts. It also have a huge mega-million dollar movie and cartoon series to springboard off of, as well a enough name recognition in that 6-13 age demographic to make throwing in the figures candy to Yet Another Bumblebee.

I don't see a fair compassion to making a Tiamat with figures. The D&D cartoon is only known to a small group of devoted fans (and reviled by half of them) and (as I've said before) the amount made and expected amount purchased doesn't meet the high volume needed to make it at the same functionality and value as the Transformer scene pack.

The closest to what you're proposing would either be the Star Wars AT-AT for the SWM line or the Icingdeath/Drizzt Icons pack. Neither, AFAICT, sold well enough to warrant further expansion, and that's coming from one of the biggest merchandising juggernauts (SW) and some of the most famous D&D novels (Drizzt) of all time!

Sadly, unless The Rouse or Logan come out and tell me there is a new D&D Icon coming out, I'm going to assume your not going to see any further Gargantuan or Colossal minis.

 

[Remathilis]

I think his point, and he can correct me if I"m wrong, is to make it a TOY and not a RPG accessory.

I still don't see a large enough market for a correctly-sized Tiamat figure unless your marketing as "Kids will LOVE our awesome five-headed dragon action figure with authentic fantasy heroes playset". (Pay no attention to the fact the dragon looks authentically like D&D's Tiamat and the fantasy heroes include dragonborn and eladrin)

 

[Klaus]

I still don't see a large enough market for a correctly-sized Tiamat figure unless your marketing as "Kids will LOVE our awesome five-headed dragon action figure with authentic fantasy heroes playset". (Pay no attention to the fact the dragon looks authentically like D&D's Tiamat and the fantasy heroes include dragonborn and eladrin)

I see toys being sold that have absolutely NO franchise behind them and are still oogled over by kids. Some very close to McFarlane's Dragons.

So yeah, my point is, make a D&D toy line.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Eh, I didn't find that account too convincing. Bearing in mind you have to balance your own preferences against the preferences of all other players.

The only thing I'm really trying to convince anyone of is that I think this is bad (and that thinking this is bad isn't somehow an invalid thought to have). I think it's bad because it has a negative effect on my game (I'm less likely to use Tiamat now because I am irked at it rather than inspired by it).

I think that Wizards can mostly solve both my problem and the problems of all the other players out there by not having many monsters bigger than Huge. I'm basically okay with that, as are the minis fans. In fact, I think that is PROBABLY what's going to happen going forward. Like I said, this is kind of a corner case. But in this instance, it was a bad thing to do, that has had a negative effect on the game I actually play ("at the table"). They did have other options for the presentation of Tiamat that would have mitigated the bad (Making her G anyway, making her a setpiece battle, giving a line or two of reasoning as to why she was so much smaller than the dragons who supposedly worship her as the embodiment of their evil power), but the fact that they didn't take those paths has failed to improve my game. The product delivered less than was promised. Therefore, I claim it was a bad choice.

So yeah, my point is, make a D&D toy line.

This would sell.

Also, perhaps in the vein of those 80s cartoons that were created to sell me toys, they can create a new cartoon to sell kids D&D?

I mean, take a look at the success of something like Avatar: The Last Airbender. A D&D cartoon that was set up more like that, using terms and adventures from 4e's "MUST ACHIEVE BRAND IDENTITY" spasms (Nerath, Bael-Turath, Arkhosia) would be pretty amazing.

Imagine a party of five.

Human (Wizard), Dragonborn (Fighter), Elf (Ranger), Dwarf (Cleric), Halfling (Rogue).

Every week they go on action-packed adventures that lead them closer to discovering the Lair of Tiamat, who controls the dragons that menace them.

Three seasons, three tiers.

You'd probably have to make it a bit anime-lookin'.

You could probably sell that to Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network or at the very least to Jetix or Toon Disney. Kids are all about fantasy and swords and wizards and junk right now. If it's done up to the quality of something like Avatar, you'll probably get some pretty ardent fans.

Heck, I'd probably watch it.

 

[MrMyth]

Plus, I was rebutting the "you can fix it!" defense for the 800,000th time since primordial cavemen complained about bad cave art. A bit of hyperbole helps to keep me interested for that old ride, and maybe conveys the point with a bit more force.

Except, of course, you weren't rebutting that point, since you ignored the entirety of the rest of my post - if, for many gamers, it is more useful to have Tiamat as a Huge monster, and for many other gamers, it makes no difference, and for a small subset of gamers, it is an atrocity that offends them beyond belief... then it is probably the correct choice for them to make it Huge.

Especially since your rebuttal - the metaphor about being able to use a wheelchair doesn't make it ok to lose your ability to walk - is absurd. You can still walk! There is no crippling change in gameplay. ONE WORD. That is all you need to change. ONE SINGLE WORD. Sure, you don't get to use a nice fancy gargantuan (or larger) Tiamat mini - but that wasn't happening anyway.

Instead, you simply change one word, and continue from there. And meanwhile, others get to enjoy using an appropriate mini.

Man, congratulations - originally I was also somewhat offended by the 'plastic logic' in play here, but you've managed to convince me that the choice they made was the right one.

 

[I'm A Banana]

if, for many gamers, it is more useful to have Tiamat as a Huge monster, and for many other gamers, it makes no difference, and for a small subset of gamers, it is an atrocity that offends them beyond belief... then it is probably the correct choice for them to make it Huge.

I don't think anyone claimed that there's any atrocity at work here. I'm also not yet convinced that "many" have claimed that it's "more useful." Some people who bought the old DDM mini claim it's more useful, but I'm not sure you can claim them as "many."

You can still walk! There is no crippling change in gameplay. ONE WORD. That is all you need to change. ONE SINGLE WORD.

"You can still go places! There's no problem here! One wheelchair! That's all you need to go places! One single wheelchair!"

All I need to change is one word. But I have to change one word. I have to use a crutch, a kitbash, an artificial device, to make up for a problem that shouldn't really exist in the first place.

I shouldn't have to change one word. I didn't buy the book so I could fix it. I'm not claiming it's apocalyptic, but I am claiming it's a problem for me. Just because I can fix it doesn't mean it's not a problem. It's still a problem that I have to fix.

originally I was also somewhat offended by the 'plastic logic' in play here, but you've managed to convince me that the choice they made was the right one.

I had no idea I was so powerfully persuasive. I must obviously continue to use this power for evil.

 

[MrMyth]

I don't think anyone claimed that there's any atrocity at work here. I'm also not yet convinced that "many" have claimed that it's "more useful." Some people who bought the old DDM mini claim it's more useful, but I'm not sure you can claim them as "many."

Sure. But I suspect the number of people with the mini is significantly larger than those who will find the size change something so horrendous it prevents their use of Tiamat.

"You can still go places! There's no problem here! One wheelchair! That's all you need to go places! One single wheelchair!"

All I need to change is one word. But I have to change one word. I have to use a crutch, a kitbash, an artificial device, to make up for a problem that shouldn't really exist in the first place.

Dude, someone being forced to use a wheelchair has an immense and profound effect upon their entire life. You do NOT get to remotely compare this situation to that - it is not just wrong, it is downright offensive.

Millions of people play this game. Every single one of them has their own preferences and ideas about how to play. I suspect there is not a single person who will find the game 100% perfect for them 100% of the time.

So yes, sometimes you need to change one word. You can't claim this problem "shouldn't really exist in the first place", because there will always be problems. There will always be something that works great for others, but that you personally need to adjust to fit your own style, your own preferences. That isn't a flaw in the game, and claiming that this is some sort of immense and tedious task - over something that is the easiest freaking thing in the world to change - is absurd. You are complaining for the sake of complaining.

Look, honestly, I have no real problems with you preferring Tiamat was larger. But your claim that being able to house rule something - especially someting as minute as this - has no actual bearing on the discussion... well, I just don't get it.

Earlier in the thread, you said you would prefer a fight with Tiamat to be something else entirely - a massive scene that isn't a simple fight, but instead some sort of complex challenge with Tiamat as a set-piece more than a single figure. I think that is a plenty cool idea - but I wouldn't want it as the default.

By your logic, since they didn't specifically write Tiamat like that, to cater to your own personal preference, it is fundamentally flawed and (apparently) worthy of mockery. Except countless other people would find that design completely useless. Given the cost to benefit ratio, it is much better to have something usable by a larger audience, and let the few who need such a highly specialized fight instead (gasp!) design it themselves. (Or make a house rule, or change a single word, or do whatever else needs doing.)

Feel free to dislike the design choice they made. But you can't claim that the game is failing unless it is somehow so absolutely perfect as to appeal to 100% of all gamers - because, gamers being gamers, that is an absolutely impossible task.