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incognito said:
jdavis: What Thief?

I could just as easily argue, the Barabrian charged in to attack opponets tougher than him.

And you tell me who is more liekly to resist the spells. the Character with the +10 will save, and the the +2 bonus to ALL saves, or the charater with the +9 will save.

Why the thief hiding in the corner, he did about as much to help as the Dwarf who stood in the middle of the room catching fireballs to the head (will save? not every spell needs a will save, and a +2 bonus ain't all that when you are trying to make saves in the 30's). Maybe the fighter and the Barbarian might of needed a little help in attacking whatever was killing them but somebody nailed the Dwarf's feet to the ground.

Regdar is very smart, he grasped the situation quick, it's a player issue not a class issue.
 

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incognito said:

I could just as easily argue, the Barabrian charged in to attack opponets tougher than him.

The barbarian has the option to withdraw. The DD doesn't if he uses that oh-so-nifty defensive stance of his, at least not if he doesn't want to be fatigued for the rest of the encounter.

And you tell me who is more liekly to resist the spells. the Character with the +10 will save, and the the +2 bonus to ALL saves, or the charater with the +9 will save.

Tell me who is more likely to get grappled via improved grab and swallowed whole, or energy drained to death, because he couldn't run away.
 

Plane Sailing said:
One thing that I'll change in a future campaign is to eliminate almost all pre-reqs for prestige classes and make them gainable only through role-playing and completion of appropriate trials set by a particular group. ...

From reading this thread I know that this won't jibe well with many of you, but I think it will be a workable and attractive way of handling prestige classes in my campaign and I thought I'd share it.

fwiw, I'm reading several d20 products that share your opinion (or at least emphasize roleplaying, trials, and location / organization-specific PrC's):
* Scarred Lands Campaing Book: Gheldspad by S&S.
* 1000 Faces by Citizen Games.
* Call of Duty by ChainMailBikini.

Personally, I like PrC's that are organization-based. As a GM, it's nice to have the crunchy bits every once in awhile. (:


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
 

Ooi hong:

The barbarian has the option to withdraw.

good job role-playing. Nicely done

grappled via improved grab and swallowed whole, or energy drained to death, because he couldn't run away.

Tha barbarian, cause the DD has such a high AC. Now if you had been SMART, and said "trampled" then I'd have nothing to say, eh?
 

A DD in defensive mode can't attack a Large size or greater enemy that takes a 5 ft step. Considering how often characters adjust their positions, whether to avoid flankers, press a spellcaster/archer, or manuever around a battle line, not being able to take a 5ft step is a huge penalty. And since a great many high level monsters have reach and thus can rip a DD to shreds while leaving him unable to counter attack. . . Equating Defensive Stance to Rage is almost criminal.

Both the barbarian and the DD get swallowed. Monsters usually have good enough bonuses to hit even armored characters often enough, and barbarians probably will get eaten before they have a chance to run away, because they charged at the begining of combat. Your example is very flawed. 15th or 16th level characters don't actually have the cash to buy +5 rings and amulets. +5 deflection and natural armor costs 100k, or 1/2 of a 15th level character's GP. If you get those, all your other gear will suck - so maybe the dragon will miss of the time, but so will you and too bad for your companions. And the dragon's +35 attack bonus is its normal melee bonus. Add in buffs (Bull's STR, maybe Divine Favor, etc), feats, and magic items for the dragon and its attack bonus will be signifcantly higher.

Defensive Awareness isn't that great. Because the DD only gets 10 levels of it, and needs 7 other levels, most enemy rogues he faces will probably be able to flank him anyway.

The +2 to Ref and Fort saves that the DD gets will usually be meaningless. How many characters aren't going to have Cloaks of Resistance at high levels? The darn things are almost required gear. High level characters will have a hard time with their best saves without them.

I actually don't like organization based prestige classes. In many cases, I find it hard to see most members of a group having levels in the same PrC. And the requirements and abilities of a PrC will exclude many people that would otherwise be fitting members. 10 level PrCs especially suck for organizations, IMHO. Look at all the PrCs in Sword and Fist that are supposed to represent training from special groups. People here complained quite a bit about the mismatching between the prereqs and the members mentioned in the flavor text section. As long as PrCs are representing an organization, there will always mismatching.

Ultimately, I treat all classes as ability templates. The unskilled but powerful warrior from a primitive tribe, dwarven battleragers, and a tough, aggressive street punk could all have some barbarian levels. The pre-supplied flavor text for classes is most useful for brainstorming when I don't have any good ideas myself.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, a barbarian can use a Mithral Breatplate +5 (10), an Animated shield +5 (7), a +5 natural armor amultet, a +5 deflection ring, Dodge, Haste and a 20 dex (magically boosted, of course) to get a 47 AC, 45 when raging. To be fair, I'll make deflection to a +4, from Holy Aura, let's say, to make up for the additional cost of the Animated Shield. So we have a final AC of 46/44. So the Barbarian is usually only 6 or 7 points behind (because Rage is almost always appropriate, and Defensive Stance isn't). While the difference can be very significant, some foes will still always miss except on a 20, and some enemies are mean enough that the difference only means a few points less Power Attack. Also, I could bring in a few other items that would help. Skin of the Hero is a really good item.
 
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Victim: I could reply to your number cruching with my own, but I won't since I've already answered a numeber of the comments you've posted to.

but I will say, captain annoying, that your twink barabrian: "an Animated shield +5 (7)" and "20 DEX (magically boosted)" and "4, from Holy Aura" is a joke.

How about I polymoph other my DD into a Stone Giant, so I get +11 natural armor and reach? Or are you going to say I lose my bonus becasue I no longer have the dwarf form..remember my "type" does not change with poly-other.

This is not a gear contest.

Now it's just getting petty.

Let's let this thread rest - I don't even LIKE Dwarven Defender!
 
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2WS-Steve said:
I certainly don't have any problems getting my players to want to go above 10th level; they love all the options out there and simply PrC out of the classes that start to get boring after 10th (which is really just the fighter).


We have a problem getting past 6th level in any version of D&D.
But not due to the DM. It is the players.
We get 3rd level abilities and we use them at the wrong times....Hence we die (Our DM is running out of low level adventures and has all these hiigh level ones that we have not even got too.)
 

incognito, I do see the merits of your argument, but I really think you are not going to get anywhere using the DD (or any DMG PrC) as the example. The DD is just too limited, I am sure there are Prestege Classes out there that you can prove the point with that would be harder for the rest of us to pick apart. I have looked at more PrC's since this started than I ever cared to look at before, so this has been very informative and some of the PrC's out there are not that good. I still hold to the fact that this whole problem is in how the players play and not in how the PrC's are set up. A good player would not try to take advantage like in the examples, a power player might, but a power player is going to do the same type of character creation regardless of if PrC's are allowed or not. I play a Arcane Archer myself and he's not all that, I took the class strictly for roleplaying purposes and the character has gained some neat tricks but it hasn't really helped any more than multiclassing into a fighter would of, he wasn't designed from the start to even multiclass much less take a PrC, at 10th level he took a opportunity and started the Prestige class, at 9th level it wasn't even considered. If players start off with a prestige class as a goal and they are only doing it to get some cool ability or score boost, then that is powergaming and I really wouldn't care for it, some people play that way, I don't, but that isn't the prestege classes fault, they may be abused but they don't automatically make characters into super characters.
 
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incognito said:

good job role-playing. Nicely done

Tell me again what this "roleplaying" thing is when it comes to a powergaming/smackdown thread.


Tha barbarian, cause the DD has such a high AC. Now if you had been SMART, and said "trampled" then I'd have nothing to say, eh?

Oh dear, incognito's brane has explodiated and caused these previous comments of mine to leak out on to the floor:

Breath weapon.
Touch spells.
Area-effect spells.
Grapple.
Greater dispelling (voila, no more haste or magic vestment).
Flight (why bash the guy up, when you can go around him?).

One day, incognito will learn that AC means little at high levels. If it doesn't leak out of his brane in the meantime, that is.
 

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