WOTC's research on gaming groups
- Thread starter Geoffrey
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incognito
First Post
there's the rub, hong, this is not a smackdown thread. (sigh)
and now:
Breath weapon.
>>How is the Barbarina getting out of the way, exactly? And who's reflex save is likely to be better?
Touch spells.
>>Who gets +4 Dodge bonus to AC, plus the dodge feat, plus an unamed AC bonus, which I'm going to err on the side of DD and say counts twds touch attacks? - so, that's a minumum Touch AC of 21 (10 +4 (def stance bonus), +1 (feat), +4 (unamed AC bonus), +2 (DEX). aaaaand that's before Haste and Deflection.
>>Your 20th level wizard has a BAB of +10, and a 12 strength. That's a 50/50 shot of missing
Area-effect spells.
>>Same as breath weapon, Barbarian is not so mobile he could get out of the way.
Grapple.
>>now I get my armor bonuses, and natural armor too - I'm not sure the DD is going to be hit.
Greater dispelling (voila, no more haste or magic vestment).
>>Greater disp hurts everyone hong. The Barbarian too
Flight (why bash the guy up, when you can go around him?).
>>So, my bow is now useless?
And you think your Barbarian lives? All the Wizard neeeds is the dominate!
IN couter, I could say, L11 cleric, L5 wizard with Haste actvive, Could True strike, Harm, then cast a quickened cause light wounds and kill any PC.
arguments like these hold no water.
All you have to do is let me have the last word...
incognito said:
Given that all your whinging has been directed at how the DD is supposedly incontrovertibly more powerful than a regular tank PC, this is indeed a smackdown thread. The fact you haven't recognised it as such speaks volumes about... something, anyway.
Irrelevant, because neither the DD nor the regular tank are going to have Ref saves worth a damn.
When most things you're fighting at 12th+ level have an attack bonus around +20, a +21 touch AC also isn't worth a damn.
Tell me now what wizard is actually going to be casting melee touch spells, when they have ranged touch spells also available. Also tell me what cleric who prepares harm regularly isn't going to have a melee attack bonus actually worth talking about.
Neither is the DD. The point is that such attacks completely negate the DD's purported advantages, thus showing up your complaints for the hot air that they are.
Read up on grappling sometime.
Exactly. It puts everyone back on a level playing field, making your whinges irrelevant.
Tell me again how the DD is better than a tank fighter or barb with a bow.
The barb dies, just the same as the DD. Ain't high-level D&D fun? You should try it sometime.
Exactly. Against such attacks, the DD's supposed advantages hold no water.
Funny you should say that.
All you have to do is let me have the last word...
You're new here, aren't you?
Hong "still chaotic this week" Ooi
Last edited:
Victim
First Post
incognito said:
Captain annoying? What did I do deserve that? The point is, the barbarian can use the exact same tricks as your example DD, and have a good enough AC that most foes will still miss. While the difference is noticeable, there isn't that great of a gulf between DD AC and barbarian AC. The only reason I used an animated shield instead of a normal one is because I usually assume that barbarians will use 2 handed weapons - but I've seen barbarians fighting sword (axe) and board. Besides the animated shield, everything was the exact same. While Dodge isn't required for barbarians, Spring Attack is a useful feat for barbarians, because they have good speed and typically use 2 handers.
As long as a character is devoting most of his/her magic junk to AC, they'll be hard to hit. You can't say it's not a gear contest, because almost all the AC in your example came from gear. Your DD was 1 point ahead because full plate normally allows 9 max AC instead of 8 like almost all other armors. It gains another 3 to 5 for the class AC bonus and can use defensive stance. Anything else is gear. A more fair statement would be "A dwarven defender will have a slighty higher AC than a comparable fighter, and can use defensive stance for greater emergency defense," instead of making up an example that can be copied almost entirely by any character.
The barbarian's Reflex will be higher in most cases. While the 20th level poor saves are equal, multiclassing between classes with the same saves boosts good progressions and slows bad ones. The barbarian should increase his save 1 level ahead of a fighter DD. Also, barbarians will tend to but more weight in dexterity because they wear lighter armor. Also, the barbarian's faster movement will mean that he can quickly move to avoid clusters. If the group is clustered up, then when the characters split up a bit, the barbarian can move farther away or close quickly so that area attacks will fall on the wizard or his allies. Even when flying, the barb can have an extra 30 speed.
Defensive stance won't usually be applicable because it keeps you from moving. So a DD will only have his class bonus against the barbarian's higher dex. The barbarian will probably start with a better touch AC but the DD will end up ahead.
Umm, Grapple doesn't involved your armor or natural armor. The barbarian will be ahead because his strength will be boosted by rage.
Actually, greater dispelling doesn't have to hurt everyone. Characters relying on magical item effects have much less to worry about. If you use +5 armor instead of Magic Vestment, a +6 belt instead of Bull's STR, etc, it's not as much of a problem. But, assuming characters are working together and spellcasters are buffing people, then yes, everyone (except the characters with Spell Turning or rings of counsterspelling) is hindered by dispels.
Characters focused on melee combat will take a substancial hit in effectiveness when using a ranged weapon - and vice versa. Just like people don't expect the Arcane Archer to tank, most dangerous enemies won't wear the DD's fire support too much.
The Dwarven Defender is a good prestige class. Using Hospitaler or something would make for a much better example of prestige class design. Or all the wizard classes that give up nothing.
incognito
First Post
You don't: apologies
High level chracters never try to try a regualr old grapple, becaue if the resulting AoO hits (and how can it not?) then the grapple fails
The DD has more DEX
I play in a non-roleplaying, rules-testing-ish, 18th level, campaign...high enough?
The Cleric and the Rogue live, the fighter and the wizard die. The cleric casts 2, True Ressurections. Welcome to high level DnD
>>>>>>>>>>>
My point about DD is that they get increases in areas that are weak for the fighter archtype (Will Save, and Uncanny dodge). All while maintaining fighter BAB.
That's all.
This will be my last reply to this thread...becsaue I am in a place I do not like - defending a PrC that I actively dislike.
Hong, feel free to reply to get in the last word.
incognito said:
Sigh. Read up on improved grab.
The DD has more DEX
Whatever, d00d.
Then you KNOW that melee combat is a place where you don't want to be stuck to one spot, like the DD's signature ability forces him to do.
I think you left your "stay relevant to the thread" switch in the Off position.
_And there is nothing wrong with that._ The DD is basically a highly specialised melee fighter. It's NATURAL they're going to be better at their chosen niche than a regular old fighter or barb. However, they're also going need it, because the niche they've chosen is DANGEROUS. And in situations outside that niche, they're going to be seriously limited because they don't get all the flexibility that a core class does.
Funny, eh?
No problem. Of course, you will feel compelled to reply as well, thus showing up your own attempt to get in the last word by announcing you don't want the last word. Fight it! Fight it, I say!
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