WotC's RotK review

[Kai Lord]

Yes, there is that too. I understand the contraints of the theatrical version. Some things needed to be edited out for time. But if you have to edit out the confrontation between the Witchking and Gandalf, then why leave in the dialogue where the Witchking says, "I will break him"?

Possibly to diminish Eowyn's script immunity. I also like that the characters have their own motivations that don't always get played out in perfect Hollywood fashion. And the Witch King didn't exactly get to make good on his boast in the book or cartoon either.

It would have been nice to have seen the demise of the orc general (or better yet, Saruman), however. I'm glad they'll be in the EE.

 

[Chain Lightning]

I rehearsed that fight with Mark Ferguson (as the swept-to-the-ground orc) down at Ruapehu, but unfortunately by the time they shot it, I was back in Auckland working on Xena, so it's someone else on film (or, rather, someone else just out of frame ).

-Hyp.

Who's Mark Ferguson?
Hypersmurf, were you part of the stunt team on LotR? Your reply has so little info.

Anyways KaiLord, I agree about it being nice to see someone break Hollywood storytelling conventions. For example: set up a villian's vow to destroy.....show a hero face off with that villian. Like in real life...sometimes things just go wrong. You may not get to fight who you wished to fight.

So, by all means.....break with predictability and not have Witchking actually able to confront Gandalf. [although its obvious that they did, cuz its in the trailer, and it was just cut due to time - - - but lets just say that it wasn't shown because PJ wanted to break expectation for whatever artistic reasons]

You can still break the format of the typical face off, but you still have to maintain the quality of storytelling that the audience takes in. If you're going to have the Witchking [for example] be denied his chance to confront Gandalf....then you have to show why he was denied, how he was, and what prevented him. A scene where Gandalf evaded him by going into that one gate house with Pippin perhaps. Or a scene where the Witchking couldnt' get close because of Gandalf's shining light thing that repels the Nazgul. Or other pressing matters on the battlefield that tore the Witchking away for whatever reason. Although, I can't imagine what would make the Witchking put off him fight with a key figure of the enemy. Some may make up a reason in their imagination....like, he saw Theoden and thought he was more of a threat. That would seem also equally unlikely because Gandalf is clearly the leader and most powerful part of the good guys until Aragorn and his undead posse arrives.

So my point is, if you're going to break a cliche or rule, you still have to adhere to conventional plain storytelling sense. If you want to make sure the audience is feeling what you want them to feel. Personally, I don't think PJ planned on not having the Witchking and Gandalf confront each other somehow....but rather, he just had to cut what he filmed of that encounter. I'm sure he didn't want to ....but ultimately , when editing....everything is awesome....but some of it has to go regardless.

Knowing he had to cut out that confrontation, why would you leave in the scene where the Witchking says his thing? Basically, what the scene does now....is give the audience a sense of forboding....a sense of something bad coming up. Although it never happens, the moment the Witchking says what he says, you're thinking..." oh no....poor Gandalf has a rough time coming his way". PJ obviously thought that you needed to feel that regardless of whether or not you get let down by not actually seeing it happen.

But now I'm just wasting typing time....we all know everything will be sweet when Extended Edition comes out. Or at least we assume so because the other EE's did so well.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Who's Mark Ferguson?

He's in Klaus' avatar The actor who played Gil-Galad.

Hypersmurf, were you part of the stunt team on LotR? Your reply has so little info.

I spent all of about two weeks working on Lord of the Rings... we had a shooting break on Xena, and they needed lots of guys for the Final Alliance scenes, so I went down to Ruapehu for some of that. I think I only actually spent about four days in costume before coming back up to Auckland for Xena.

So compared to the guys who worked full-time on LotR for a year, and did four months of night shoots for Helm's Deep, I'm not going to claim I was "part of the team".

Although I did actually get stunt credit on the TTTEE DVD

-Hyp.

 

[Kai Lord]

You can still break the format of the typical face off, but you still have to maintain the quality of storytelling that the audience takes in.

Without question. For me, that quality was indeed maintained. For whatever its worth, I saw ROTK without having read the book. It didn't seem odd at all that the Witch King didn't face Gandalf. His trash talking before the fight was cool, but the flow of the battle just didn't seem to bring them together.

Since I had avoided watching trailers before seeing the film, I went to www.lordoftherings.net and watched the full trailer after seeing the movie. When I saw the WK land in front of Gandalf and Pippen I thought "Whoa! That wasn't in the movie! Sweet!" Then when I saw the movie again at the Arclight, the WK's line about breaking Gandalf stood out a little more.

But the story as a cinematic entity apart from the book, cartoon, or even EE worked very well without the confrontation (for me). I do see how it might be missed if you were expecting it ahead of time, but, speaking as someone who saw it cold, it worked.

If you're going to have the Witchking [for example] be denied his chance to confront Gandalf....then you have to show why he was denied, how he was, and what prevented him.

But PJ did show why the WK was denied. A little encounter with a girl named Eowyn.

So my point is, if you're going to break a cliche or rule, you still have to adhere to conventional plain storytelling sense. If you want to make sure the audience is feeling what you want them to feel. Personally, I don't think PJ planned on not having the Witchking and Gandalf confront each other somehow....but rather, he just had to cut what he filmed of that encounter. I'm sure he didn't want to ....but ultimately , when editing....everything is awesome....but some of it has to go regardless.

Remember that a film takes on a whole new life in the editing room. Obviously PJ went scene by scene to determine what would stay in the battle of Gondor, and what would be cut. When he got to the WK/Gandalf confrontation, he would have watched the entire battle with and without it, and obviously came to the realization that either it flowed better without the scene regardless of time, or he didn't have time for it and every other scene he included was superior, either on its own or in representing the drama that the confrontation would have brought to the table.

Also as a filmmaker PJ would have had to consider that this would have meant the WK faced down five principle characters over three separate encounters in that one battle. Gandalf, Pippen. Then Theoden. Then Eowyn and Merry. When watching it in succession in the editing room it might simply have been too much of a good thing.

Knowing he had to cut out that confrontation, why would you leave in the scene where the Witchking says his thing? Basically, what the scene does now....is give the audience a sense of forboding....a sense of something bad coming up.

Those are a few reasons to leave it in, as well as the possible removal of Eowyn's script immunity mentioned above. "Well obviously the WK is going to fight Gandalf, oh no, what is Eowyn doing in the way!" Not that I expected that, after playing up the "No man may kill him" I figured she (or Merry) would take him out when he landed in front of her.

But now I'm just wasting typing time....we all know everything will be sweet when Extended Edition comes out. Or at least we assume so because the other EE's did so well.

But I think your criticisms are fair (even if I disagree) considering PJ releases the theatrical editions as what he considers to be the best versions of the films. I think the original theatrical FOTR is significantly better than its EE, though I do prefer the extended TTT. Will be interesting to see how the longer ROTK compares.

One of the few things I remembered from the cartoon was Frodo and Sam getting mistaken for orcs in Mordor, and falling in line with a group of them. That seemed like something that would be really silly to see in live action, and wasn't disappointed that it didn't make the movie.

Even though Saruman's finale will obviously be the signature addition of the EE, I'm actually looking most forward to the Mouth of Sauron. Did you see the concept art drawing of that guy? He looked completely wicked!

 

[Red Baron]

Don't get me wrong, 'cause I loved all three films, but I would happily have seen PJ cut about 5 minutes of the long, slow, slightly over-melodramatic crying scenes within the last 25 minutes of RotK... That surely would have left room for Saruman's death, Gandalf vs. W-K, etc.

But that's just me. The end of the book has made me cry every time I've read it (18 or 19 times now), but I found the film to be beating me over the head with the director's cry stick, and as a viewer, I find that alienating, not to mention annoying. I like to think I'm a sophisticated enough viewer that I don't need the director to beat my head with a stick.

Anyway, Hypersmurf: Very cool line of work you have there. Are you a fight guy all the time, or do you do other stunt work? What's your background? How long have you been at it? What other credits do you have?

Forgive me if I'm being too nosy -- that's a very intriguing kind of work to me. Email if you'd rather not boast to the masses.

 

[Red Baron]

But I think your criticisms are fair (even if I disagree) considering PJ releases the theatrical editions as what he considers to be the best versions of the films.

Surely there's some PR-spin in that assertion, though? As a filmmaker, you don't want to tell your audience "Well, here's a version of the film acceptable for you people, but the real version is coming out in 6 or 8 months..."

If PJ is the true LotR fan he seems, surely he would want all the cool, meaningful scenes he was forced to cut in the final version, right?

Proviso: Of course, this is pure speculation on my part, so don't torch me too cruelly...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Anyway, Hypersmurf: Very cool line of work you have there. Are you a fight guy all the time, or do you do other stunt work?

Used to be pretty much just fights... I worked almost exclusively on PRP productions, and fights were probably over ninety percent of what we did.

Now I'm a programmer I've been out of the industry for a couple of years now - once Xena finished its run, there just wasn't the work here for the number of people that had been working.

A bunch of NZ stuntmen went over to Morocco recently to work on one of the Alexander pictures, and in the last year or so there's been regular work for a few with the Power Rangers series they're shooting here, and there are high hopes for the Narnia films... so there is work out there. But I'd never intended stunts to be a career, and the security of a 'real' job is nice. It's not as interesting, perhaps, but there isn't the same worry of two or three months going by where you work a total of two days, y'know?

-Hyp.