Noumenon
First Post
Not following you, unless you mean punish the PCs until the players stop complaining.
Would like some help evaluating an item
Not following you, unless you mean punish the PCs until the players stop complaining.
dragonfriend7738
Explorer
"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
Greenfield
Adventurer
Loonook, I think we're somehow on different pages.
I've been running the Half Satyr Bard since before I joined Enworld, so unless you guys are so good that your advice is retroactive, no Enworld didn't build the character for me.
The Dm has just handed a 72k item to a 12th level PC, whose wealth should total about 88k per the DMG. (Actually 74 to 82k depending on how you price enchantments to cold iron.) I think it's way too much in a single item, and way too much over all. The wealth guidelines back me up on that. The item would be more than half the PC's wealth if he were 13th level (book guideline says 110k.)
I ran the damage output on the item, and on the version I suggested as an alternate. Unless you're into the "less is more" kind of math, the +4 item I suggested is less money and less damage output than the +6 item the DM is putting into the game.
I invite you to run numbers and post them here. Show me where a D6 of damage is less than a D4. Show me where a D6 of non-resistible untyped damage is less than a D6 of resistible energy damage. Show me where +6 to +8 Charisma bonus damage, all the time, is less than +5 "half Bard level" bonus damage. Show me where energy dice multiply on a critical hit, or where untyped, non-energy damage doesn't.
So please, run the numbers. Show your work. Don't just hand wave and say, "it's more", show it.
I've been running the Half Satyr Bard since before I joined Enworld, so unless you guys are so good that your advice is retroactive, no Enworld didn't build the character for me.
The Dm has just handed a 72k item to a 12th level PC, whose wealth should total about 88k per the DMG. (Actually 74 to 82k depending on how you price enchantments to cold iron.) I think it's way too much in a single item, and way too much over all. The wealth guidelines back me up on that. The item would be more than half the PC's wealth if he were 13th level (book guideline says 110k.)
I ran the damage output on the item, and on the version I suggested as an alternate. Unless you're into the "less is more" kind of math, the +4 item I suggested is less money and less damage output than the +6 item the DM is putting into the game.
I invite you to run numbers and post them here. Show me where a D6 of damage is less than a D4. Show me where a D6 of non-resistible untyped damage is less than a D6 of resistible energy damage. Show me where +6 to +8 Charisma bonus damage, all the time, is less than +5 "half Bard level" bonus damage. Show me where energy dice multiply on a critical hit, or where untyped, non-energy damage doesn't.
So please, run the numbers. Show your work. Don't just hand wave and say, "it's more", show it.
Again you asked plenty of questions. Again, I have posted the damage output above in a post, that shows how the numbers have been figured, and how much the valuations are worth. It's post #9.
To whit, you posted this bard build along with requests for most everything beyond stat in various threads over the last year, and we've responded. I've posted the listing of how the math works (3.5 avg damage on a dice + Cha < Echoblade's benefits UNLESS you're looking at a constant 24 or higher on your Charisma, and the swing will put the onus on the damage die far more often than not as you're going to have 1/2 of the time when your damage will be lower for the output. If Bardic PrCs get counted in (anything that continues bardic class features should imho) allow the damage to increase from the Echoblade. If you really wanted to continue with the 'all bard all the time' angle he could have gone with screaming, thundering, or any number of other effects.
Sonic is pretty much untyped as there just aren't enough threats with Sonic Resistance. Only your BBEGs are going to have it for the most part, while any other damage just doesn't handle it. Probably why there aren't a lot of sonic damage additions to the game. Also, the untyped damage could, if the DM really wanted to be like it, be considered part of the natural weapon and subject to DR. Personally would probably go that route myself.
So, as I was saying, you're looking a gift horse in the mouth, all information is posted in my previous post in the line, please just... Stop worrying about the weapon as it isn't even close to 72k.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
To whit, you posted this bard build along with requests for most everything beyond stat in various threads over the last year, and we've responded. I've posted the listing of how the math works (3.5 avg damage on a dice + Cha < Echoblade's benefits UNLESS you're looking at a constant 24 or higher on your Charisma, and the swing will put the onus on the damage die far more often than not as you're going to have 1/2 of the time when your damage will be lower for the output. If Bardic PrCs get counted in (anything that continues bardic class features should imho) allow the damage to increase from the Echoblade. If you really wanted to continue with the 'all bard all the time' angle he could have gone with screaming, thundering, or any number of other effects.
Sonic is pretty much untyped as there just aren't enough threats with Sonic Resistance. Only your BBEGs are going to have it for the most part, while any other damage just doesn't handle it. Probably why there aren't a lot of sonic damage additions to the game. Also, the untyped damage could, if the DM really wanted to be like it, be considered part of the natural weapon and subject to DR. Personally would probably go that route myself.
So, as I was saying, you're looking a gift horse in the mouth, all information is posted in my previous post in the line, please just... Stop worrying about the weapon as it isn't even close to 72k.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Wow.
Run the numbers. Don't point at past, rambling posts that didn't. Run the numbers.
What is the average damage output for a Bard, level 9, plus two levels of Sublime Chord) Remember the half level advancement in Bardic Music granted by Sublime Chord. Do it again as if Sublime Chord were a full Bard level advancement. Figure that the Bard started with an 18 Charisma, and added to it at every opportunity, which means a 21 Charisma right now. Presume a +2 item and then recalculate with Eagle's Splendor in effect.
Run the numbers for each weapon, side by side. (And please, don't claim that you did in post 9. You didn't.)
Also, while you're at it, read the rules. Feycraft weapons are always cold iron, not alchemical silver. That suggestion (from post 9) can't be implemented.
And on that note, I'm not sure if the Crystal Echoblade has to be made of a specific material either. I don't have my books with me, but what I can find online suggests that the weapon is actually made of sound, somehow. It may have class restrictions as well.
I'll run the numbers, for any who care.
[sblock]+2 Cold Iron Rapier, +1 D6 damage, + Charisma bonus, + Lycanthrope Bane, + Weapon Finesse.
Base damage is D6, or 3.5.
Bonus damage is D6 untyped, or 3.5
Charisma bonus is 6, with item, 7 with spell.
Magical enhancement of +2.
So average damage is 15, plus strength, 30 on a Critical Hit.
Add a point when Eagle's Splendor is cast.
Feycraft Crystal Echoblade Rapier +2, Singing, Lycanthrope Bane.
Base damage is D4, or 2.5
Bonus damage is D6 sonic, or 3.5
Half Bard level bonus is 5
Magical enhancement of +2
So average damage is 13, 20.5 on a critical hit.
Add a point if you count Sublime Chord as full Bard level.
[/sblock]
Regarding the build: Yes, I've asked advice. I've learned a good bit and I've used some of it. Couldn't possibly have used all of it, since that would require about seven different characters. But while this forum is an excellent information source (you guys own a lot more books than I do), the decisions were mine. And many of them were, as I said, made long before I joined Enworld.
Semi-tangential question: What happens to weapons that do Sonic type damage if Silence is cast? Does the damage bonus still apply?
Run the numbers. Don't point at past, rambling posts that didn't. Run the numbers.
What is the average damage output for a Bard, level 9, plus two levels of Sublime Chord) Remember the half level advancement in Bardic Music granted by Sublime Chord. Do it again as if Sublime Chord were a full Bard level advancement. Figure that the Bard started with an 18 Charisma, and added to it at every opportunity, which means a 21 Charisma right now. Presume a +2 item and then recalculate with Eagle's Splendor in effect.
Run the numbers for each weapon, side by side. (And please, don't claim that you did in post 9. You didn't.)
Also, while you're at it, read the rules. Feycraft weapons are always cold iron, not alchemical silver. That suggestion (from post 9) can't be implemented.
And on that note, I'm not sure if the Crystal Echoblade has to be made of a specific material either. I don't have my books with me, but what I can find online suggests that the weapon is actually made of sound, somehow. It may have class restrictions as well.
I'll run the numbers, for any who care.
[sblock]+2 Cold Iron Rapier, +1 D6 damage, + Charisma bonus, + Lycanthrope Bane, + Weapon Finesse.
Base damage is D6, or 3.5.
Bonus damage is D6 untyped, or 3.5
Charisma bonus is 6, with item, 7 with spell.
Magical enhancement of +2.
So average damage is 15, plus strength, 30 on a Critical Hit.
Add a point when Eagle's Splendor is cast.
Feycraft Crystal Echoblade Rapier +2, Singing, Lycanthrope Bane.
Base damage is D4, or 2.5
Bonus damage is D6 sonic, or 3.5
Half Bard level bonus is 5
Magical enhancement of +2
So average damage is 13, 20.5 on a critical hit.
Add a point if you count Sublime Chord as full Bard level.
[/sblock]
Regarding the build: Yes, I've asked advice. I've learned a good bit and I've used some of it. Couldn't possibly have used all of it, since that would require about seven different characters. But while this forum is an excellent information source (you guys own a lot more books than I do), the decisions were mine. And many of them were, as I said, made long before I joined Enworld.
Semi-tangential question: What happens to weapons that do Sonic type damage if Silence is cast? Does the damage bonus still apply?
Last edited:
From the DMG II said:
Yeah, doesn't actually say that it has to be Cold Iron in the descriptor or in the template system. The item is another template, cheaper than adding Finesse as a feat, and the average damage output can be improved by adding a +1 or allowing for an 'enhanced' Feycrafting at a slightly higher price.
So again, the item would be 1d4 + 1d6 + 5 + 3 or 14 if a +3 CEB, or the same if you decided to allow for an improved Feycrafting but you now have a +4 weapon instead of a +5. The item can also be silvered as there is no pre-req in Feycrafting. Figure in the feycrafting 1.5k, the original cost of the echoblade (knock it off as included in the item description as a +1 weapon), silvering of 20gp, and the item is 52k. Still far below a +6 weapon. And that's pie-in-the-sky unoptimized form of the weapon, providing for a +3 enhancement.
With your stylized version of the blade? You're working all within the Enhancement system, so the current item here is a +5 with some additional juice. If you believe the item you have is a +6 then go ahead... Mine will increase 1 damage per 2 levels, and provides the use of Bardic Music rather than using that ol' 2nd level spell slot. Leaves you free to use Cat's Grace to improve your to-hit rather than improving your damage, blur to provide concealment, etc, making you actually a better 'front-liner' with this item, and bypassing more high-level DRs unless you're fighting a load of Fey. Oh, and with all of that alleged fanciness you have there? I still have room for an additional +1, so let us add Frost (lets call it a Winter Court weapon). Later on I still have points to burn.
As I said, your item is not very good, and could actually be much better with just a few peeks into the available material, and scaleable, with better possibilities for enhancement due to enhancement bonuses increasing in effect.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
Greenfield
Adventurer
So, lots of discussion, light on numbers, and an open disregard for the rules you yourself quoted.
You also ignored the -1 damage adjustment from silver on your proposed version, I noticed.
You went with a +3 base weapon to increase the damage, I noticed, even though the discussion has been comparing +2 weapon enhancements so far.
Your +5 version of the Crystal Echoblade would run 52k, minimum (surcharge for enchanting cold iron), up to 56k if the DM decides to apply that surcharge to each type of enhancement separately.
So the weapon is only 7/11ths of the total wealth for a character of the level. Still well over half total, and in fact over two-thirds.
You didn't run any numbers for the original, and ignored the sharp difference in damage output on a critical hit.
And even with you fudging the numbers and ignoring the parts you didn't like, your "does more damage" claim still fails to prove out.
In any case, an item of that power and value is too much to hand to a 12th level PC in one chunk. Too big a percentage of the recommended wealth for any sane DM to allow if you were simply building from scratch.
The +4 version, without inventing any special "Enhanced Feycraft" thing that acts like an enhancement bonus without being one, would cost 34k, minimum, 38k if we charge for crafting Cold Iron separately on each enhancement.
Looks a lot more sane when compared to the 88k guideline, though still over 33%.
Oh, and if you really need a silver blade, consider Silversheen, an alchemical material that can be applied to a blade to give it a temporary silver effect. Straightforward and we don't need to fudge any rules either.
Not "usually" or "commonly", just "made from cold iron."
You also ignored the -1 damage adjustment from silver on your proposed version, I noticed.
You went with a +3 base weapon to increase the damage, I noticed, even though the discussion has been comparing +2 weapon enhancements so far.
Your +5 version of the Crystal Echoblade would run 52k, minimum (surcharge for enchanting cold iron), up to 56k if the DM decides to apply that surcharge to each type of enhancement separately.
So the weapon is only 7/11ths of the total wealth for a character of the level. Still well over half total, and in fact over two-thirds.
You didn't run any numbers for the original, and ignored the sharp difference in damage output on a critical hit.
And even with you fudging the numbers and ignoring the parts you didn't like, your "does more damage" claim still fails to prove out.
In any case, an item of that power and value is too much to hand to a 12th level PC in one chunk. Too big a percentage of the recommended wealth for any sane DM to allow if you were simply building from scratch.
The +4 version, without inventing any special "Enhanced Feycraft" thing that acts like an enhancement bonus without being one, would cost 34k, minimum, 38k if we charge for crafting Cold Iron separately on each enhancement.
Looks a lot more sane when compared to the 88k guideline, though still over 33%.
Oh, and if you really need a silver blade, consider Silversheen, an alchemical material that can be applied to a blade to give it a temporary silver effect. Straightforward and we don't need to fudge any rules either.
Again the template does not include the requirement for cold iron. Also all of that was included.. But alright, yeah, this is a case of crying over your Christmas present. Carry on with your complaints behind the ignore.
Slainte,
-Loonook.
anest1s
First Post
I don't think it is too powerful. Maybe it costs too much and the only way this can be a problem is if you decide to sell it - or if you have to pay the rest of the party to get it.
I think the best way for your DM to avoid trouble with it is to name it "artifact" - so you can't price or sell it.
I think the best way for your DM to avoid trouble with it is to name it "artifact" - so you can't price or sell it.
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