Would reducing spellscribing costs break anything?

chilibean said:
One thing it really adjusts is the value of spell books that are captured as loot.

A spellbook is an awesome find for most parties. The wizard can copy just the few spells they really want, then sell the book for oodles of cash. If scribing is cheaper, then spellbooks as loot are worth a lot less.

The scribing costs in our games very quickly becomes a non-issue to the wizard. But the value of the spell books we find is really great.

So actually, reducing the scribing cost actually COSTS the party much more in lost loot, than it gains in cheaper scribing.
This is pretty campaign specific though. In my campaign the PC's have not fought an arcane spellcaster so far while advancing two levels. If they find a wizard's spellbook, the PC wizard can certainly use the spells. But since spellcasters in the area are all divine, at best the spellbook would be a curiousity for someone's collection.
 

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You could give a Wizard the "Great Big Book of Spells" and it wouldnt significantly increase his power level.

The balancing factors to a WIZ are Preparation and Spells/Day. Face it, even if he has 30+ spells per level in his book youre not going to see more than 6-7 at any given time and it probably more like the same 3-4 a SOR has due to duplication.
 

chilibean said:
One thing it really adjusts is the value of spell books that are captured as loot.

A spellbook is an awesome find for most parties. The wizard can copy just the few spells they really want, then sell the book for oodles of cash. If scribing is cheaper, then spellbooks as loot are worth a lot less.

I don't flat out disagree with you, chilibean, but I do question this assertion.

I'll grant that if it COSTS a ton to put spells into a spellbook, it will have great value to the person it belongs to. But if the scribing costs are so high, it may actually reduce the value of the book to the buyer.

What I'm saying is that if a Wizard has 2,000 GP and you are using the normal scribing costs, is he better off to spend most of that money on a spellbook that he can't presently use, but if he saves up a bunch of money, he can copy into his own spell book? Or is he better off to spend a lesser amount to buy a few scrolls of the spells that he really wants and spend the rest on scribing costs?

Again, I think this is very campaign specific. If spells are hard to find then I'd guess that Spell Books are very valuable. If you can purchase specific scrolls from the local magic shop, I'd guess Spell Books would be less valuable.
 

I considered a house rule for my campaign (it turns out not to matter since no one is a wizard) that would do this:

The only way to get a spell into a spellbook would be to cast it off a scroll INTO the book. There would also be no limitation on using another wizard's spellbook until after you have 'learned' the spell yourself (although there would be a moderate spellcraft check to study from the other wizard's book).

Opinions?

In some cases it would raise the cost to 'scribe'. But there would be no ink cost and it wouldn't take DAYS to enter into the book.

UofMDude
 

For a while I didn't understand the scribing cost imposed on a wizard. After all, no other class has to pay for his class abilities. However, I eventually concluded that scribing costs do serve as a very important balance to the wizard class:

Item Creation.

A wizard who crafts items gets them for half price. By forcing the wizard to pay crazy amounts of money to scribe his spells, it (at least from low to mid-levels,) counters the savings from item creation, making sure that the wizard doesn't have way more money than any other class. Without scribing costs and time, a wizard could very well end up with twice as many magic items as any other class, since he can craft his own for half price.

However, that said a wizard who doesn't craft items is taking a hit in the pocketbook that isn't, IMO, warranted. The cost is there to balance the savings in crafting items, not because of power issues, so a wizard who doesn't make use of that savings potential winds up with a penalty and nothing to balance it.

As an example of this idea in action: I play a fighter/mage currently, and the DM has eliminated scribing costs altogether. My PC doesn't have any item creation feats save Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand, so he has to pay full price for, say, a Headband of Intellect +2, etc. Plus he still has to buy the scrolls of spells he wants to scribe, which are themselves pretty expensive. The result? His spellbook isn't very impressive at all, but it does have enough spells in it to be fun to use! :D
 


For a while I didn't understand the scribing cost imposed on a wizard. After all, no other class has to pay for his class abilities. However, I eventually concluded that scribing costs do serve as a very important balance to the wizard class:

Item Creation.

IC is balanced with/by itself. Its a self-contained package. With the feat, gp, xp and time requirements you dont need any outside factors to balance against it.

And that leaves out Clerics and Druids who get their entire list to create from with no mysterious cost restriction.
 

Scribing of spells at 200 gp PER spell level PLUS the cost of getting the scroll/book is balanced how? At low levels this cost is VERY painful, but at higher levels it's a joke.

Cleric/Druids as pointed out get all the PHB spells and THEN add in the Cleric Book, Magic of Faerun, and many other sources... and Divine guys gets hundreds if not thousands of spells at the touch of a finger.

Yes an Arcane casters spells do more damage in most cases, but Cleric spell power is damn near equal to a Wizard now, so where does the balance come from for that?

Anyways... playing a Wizard and spending BUCKS on getting a Scroll THEN 200 gp per level and time to just get a single spell is essentially limiting a Wizard in our game to "Sorceror" like spell selection. "Your 7th level Wizard can try to get some cool magic items like the other character or spend... 150 GP plus 400 GP to buy and scroll another 2nd level spell! WOW! Or maybe you want a 4th level spell! Jesus! That's 700gp to buy the scroll and 800 GP to scribe it. 1500 gp for a single 4th level spell."

HOW much gold did the player get from 6th to 7th level? Using the DMG (which I do) the players made around 6000 gold TOTAL. This includes having to spend for regular food and board, anything else, REAL magic like replacing Wands and Scrolls for battle, Healing potions, then... GEE. A Wizard can spend ALL his cash to get 2 or 3 spells. If his spellbook gets lost it's all over for our character. The rogue or fighter picks up a another +1 weapon and some potions or maybe Boots of Elvenkind AND Cloak of Elvenkind. You get a couple spells. WOW. Makes one want to play Monte Cook new Sorceror even more. My Wizards cannot AFFORD to get new spells so they are essentially limited to 2 spells per level so they look just LIKE Sorcerors.

I have yet to see balance anywhere in this?
 

I can see we have several passionate wizard-players here. :)

I still think that item creation requires a balance in money. Most items in the DMG require wizard spells, rather than cleric or druid ones, and wizard is the class getting bonus feats to take item creation. As I see it, while other casters can make an effort to craft, item crafting in general is the wizard's bailiwick. Thus, to keep him from crafting a zillion items for himself at half-price his money is drained away on his spell selection. Even then (see below) it isn't that much of a drain for a wizard who's crafting a lot of items.

Marshall writes:
IC is balanced with/by itself. Its a self-contained package. With the feat, gp, xp and time requirements you dont need any outside factors to balance against it.

True, but wizards get free feats to fulfill the feat requirement, the xp cost is very low (trust me, when I was considering taking Craft Wondrous Item I went through the entire DMG and calculated xp costs of items. It was negligible.) And the gold is, as I said, at a 1/2 price discount, hardly a restriction! Time is one of the only really big factors, and even that only applies in certain campaigns.


JLXC writes:
Cleric/Druids as pointed out get all the PHB spells and THEN add in the Cleric Book, Magic of Faerun, and many other sources... and Divine guys gets hundreds if not thousands of spells at the touch of a finger.

Well, if you allow your clerics to add every new spell to their spell lists without restriction, then you're dealing with a whole different balance issue. Wizards are already balanced in the new spell department, because no matter how many new spells come out, they still have to buy each and every one. Clerics and druids getting spells for nothing is a separate, and very real, balance issue. My favorite solution for this is Piratecat's, wherein he requires clerics and druids to "swap out" pre-existing spells if they want access to newer ones. On a related note, anyone taking new spells (non-core, even splatbook spells,) is going to be hurt in the Item Creation department, because the items in the DMG have pre-reqs based on core spells.

Anyways... playing a Wizard and spending BUCKS on getting a Scroll THEN 200 gp per level and time to just get a single spell is essentially limiting a Wizard in our game to "Sorceror" like spell selection. "Your 7th level Wizard can try to get some cool magic items like the other character or spend... 150 GP plus 400 GP to buy and scroll another 2nd level spell!

Okay, let's use this example to illustrate my earlier point. Say your wizard spends the 550gp to buy a spell. Say that it's Cat's Grace. Now he decides to craft himself a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2. He spends another 2,000gp, plus 160xp, and four days of work. His final cost is 2,550gp, plus 160xp and four days labor. Compare this to the fighter, who must pay 4,000gp for the same item. This savings only gets better as the wizard levels up, because the increasing XP gap between levels means that he can craft until the cows come home, and he'll still most likely only be a level behind his companions, but have a pile of magic items to make up for that single lost level. Nice deal. Cut out the scribing costs, (and scribing time, which is another balancing factor here,) and the wizard's bonuses get even better.

Extrapolating from this, a mid- to high-level wizard who's invested in crafting feats can have the same amount of magic items as his companions, several more spells than the sorcerer, and still have money in his pocket. But as I said before, this entire argument rests on a wizard who's doing a lot of crafting. If a wizard chose not to craft at all, and spent his free feats on metamagic, for instance, the whole formula puts him at a disadvantage because he's still paying for his spells, but not making any money back through a savings on magic items.
 

I see your point. It's just that none of my players has EVER had a Craft Item feat except for Scribe Scroll because it came with the class. heh.
 


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