Would reducing spellscribing costs break anything?

[Marshall]

Okay, let's use this example to illustrate my earlier point. Say your wizard spends the 550gp to buy a spell. Say that it's Cat's Grace. Now he decides to craft himself a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2. He spends another 2,000gp, plus 160xp, and four days of work. His final cost is 2,550gp, plus 160xp and four days labor. Compare this to the fighter, who must pay 4,000gp for the same item. This savings only gets better as the wizard levels up, because the increasing XP gap between levels means that he can craft until the cows come home, and he'll still most likely only be a level behind his companions, but have a pile of magic items to make up for that single lost level. Nice deal. Cut out the scribing costs, (and scribing time, which is another balancing factor here,) and the wizard's bonuses get even better.

Except youve still missed something, Where did the 2550gp come from? You have to have the seed money to start with. And thats assuming the DM allows -on demand- creation.

 

[WaterRabbit]

A couple more comments

Okay, let's use this example to illustrate my earlier point. Say your wizard spends the 550gp to buy a spell. Say that it's Cat's Grace. Now he decides to craft himself a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2. He spends another 2,000gp, plus 160xp, and four days of work. His final cost is 2,550gp, plus 160xp and four days labor. Compare this to the fighter, who must pay 4,000gp for the same item. This savings only gets better as the wizard levels up, because the increasing XP gap between levels means that he can craft until the cows come home, and he'll still most likely only be a level behind his companions, but have a pile of magic items to make up for that single lost level. Nice deal. Cut out the scribing costs, (and scribing time, which is another balancing factor here,) and the wizard's bonuses get even better.

A couple of extra points on this: To create this item works like follows:

Buy scroll (25*2*3) = 150
Decipher scroll = Read Magic or Spellcraft check
Learn Spell = Takes one day Spellcraft check DC 17. If you are a 3rd level wizard that has perhaps a +10 (6 ranks, +4 Int) to the roll you need a 7 or better to succeed. If you fail 30%, then you are out 150 gold and cannot try again until next level when your Spellcraft raises. (Where you have to buy the scroll again and then have a 25% of failure).
Write Spell: Takes 3 days for a 2nd level spell and costs 400 gp.

So, a total of 4 days and 550 gold to learn a 2nd level spell. (But, if you can sell your Gloves of Dexterity for Market Value, then you have more than paid for your initial investment and everything you make after that is pure profit.)

Now, when comparing your cost to make the item, you should multiply your exp cost * 5 (160*5= 800) to convert to equivalent gold. So, your effective cost to make Gloves of Dexterity is 2800 + 550 + 8 days = 3350 gold + 8 days.

But wait there is more, on page 178 of the DMG, 2nd paragraph under Caster Level states quite clearly that at 3rd level you cannot make this item. Nope, you will have to wait until you are 8th level.

Of course once you learn the spell, you can make items at 50% cost and then turn around and sell them at market value. Not in most campaigns I have seen.

Also, it is more effective to learn spells from someone else's spellbook, since you don't have to pay for the spell (if found as treasure) and if you fail you are not out any money. OTOH, this limits your spells to what you can find.

IMHO, the Craft Wand feat is the most useful. Since you can have on tap up to 50 spells that are very useful, but not ones that you would want to memorize all the time. Having a Wand of Invisibility (CL 3) gives you 50 30 minute duration Invisibility spells at your finger tips for a mere cost of 2250, 5 days, 180 exp. BTW, same cost for a Wand of Cat's Grace that you can use to enhance the whole party. (You still have to be at least 5th level to do this.)

 

[Shard O'Glase]

If you follow the standard costs of scribing spells in a standard money campaign there is no reson to play a wizard over a sorcerer unless your concept can never be reached without those bonus feats. The costs are far too high which is why they have all those work around methods like blessed book, and spellbook capturing(FR), or my favorite charging your fellow party members above cost for magic items made.

So if it was for balance they really screwed up, because I doubt they thought balance meant you're screwed until you get a few levels under your belt and can cheeze the system to work around the costs. I honestly think they put the cost in without considering balance. I beleive they put it in because they felt their should be a cost for flavor reasons, 100gp a page sounded good, but they never really worked out exactly how much that is at level 1-10ish.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I beleive they put it in because they felt their should be a cost for flavor reasons, 100gp a page sounded good, but they never really worked out exactly how much that is at level 1-10ish.

Not at all! They knew how much this limited wizards' abilities to choose their spells, and thought it was a major balance issue with sorcerers.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Not at all! They knew how much this limited wizards' abilities to choose their spells, and thought it was a major balance issue with sorcerers.

ok if it wasn't just flavor then they screwed up on a huge scale. Hey I know lets make money a balancing factor for wizard spell selection but then come up with ways around the cost so it only screws you for a little bit, or it only screws you if you have one of those retributive dms who hate it when players actually think. This still looks to me to be a flavor based rule not a balance one, largely because it doesn't really limit the wizard since there are multiple ways around it. The only way it limits the wizard is in non-standard campaigns or where the ways around it are removed, then it is a large limitation and swings the balance way in favor of the sorcerer unless 5 bonus feats are all important to your character concept.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Money is always a balancing factor.

Even the ways around scribing costs, though, cost money themselves; while Boccob's blessed book is cheaper, a DM might not hand one out and even if he/she does, it has limited slots. I agree that its price is low, but that's a different discussion.

 

[Petrosian]

Ways around the scribing cost outside of the realms (FR = wizard boosting) is pretty much limited to the BBB which HELPS offset the money but not the time. The amenawhatsits spell and mastering foreign spellbooks are both realms specific.

As for BBB, at 9.5k it is thriple the max for commonly available, so in most cases their frequency will be rare if at all. If a mage wants to make one, after he gets the spell and levels under his belt then he is gonna have to find 10 days, the 4500 or so materials (also a high price item thus hard to find) and the XP... all of which serve to limit this from becoming a common "workaround."

Net result, the spellbook remains a drain on wizard resources IF he wwnts to have a good number of spells above the free ones. By higher levels, the money cost is much less a percentage but the time has gone up drastically... a week for a 6yh level spell.

If one bothers to consider WOTC standard, their published sample spellbooks show just a couple spells per level above normal free. So apparently they don't plan for wizards getting those bulging spellbooks they like to dream about, either.

 

[Ravellion]

Re: A couple more comments

Buy scroll (25*2*3) = 150
Decipher scroll = Read Magic or Spellcraft check
Learn Spell = Takes one day Spellcraft check DC 17. If you are a 3rd level wizard that has perhaps a +10 (6 ranks, +4 Int) to the roll you need a 7 or better to succeed. If you fail 30%, then you are out 150 gold and cannot try again until next level when your Spellcraft raises. (Where you have to buy the scroll again and then have a 25% of failure).
Write Spell: Takes 3 days for a 2nd level spell and costs 400 gp.

If you fail, the scroll stays in tact. What you are referring to (scroll gone when failed) is a 2nd edition rule.

Now, when comparing your cost to make the item, you should multiply your exp cost * 5 (160*5= 800) to convert to equivalent gold. So, your effective cost to make Gloves of Dexterity is 2800 + 550 + 8 days = 3350 gold + 8 days.

As the Dutch would say "Je hebt de klok wel horen luiden, maar weet niet waar de klepel hangt". Basically, you've heard the engine roaring, but doesn't quite know how it works. The multiplication by 5 is put forth in the end of the equipment chapter, under NPC spellcasting. It refers to the compensation an NPC should require for compensating XP loss. However 5gp can not buy you one xp, nor vice versa. It is just meant as a balancing mechanic for not having mid level parties buying wishes off of inexperienced DM's.

But wait there is more, on page 178 of the DMG, 2nd paragraph under Caster Level states quite clearly that at 3rd level you cannot make this item. Nope, you will have to wait until you are 8th level.

Nope. The caster level is there for what caster level a random Gloves of Dexterity would be. It doesn't put the caster level under requisite. This has been clarified by Monte Cook, and since he did write the book, I happen to take his opinion on anything in the DMG quite seriously. Basically, the caster level for an item is needed for Dispel Magic checks, Item saving throws etc. Of course, if a PC creates an item, it is at the caster level at which he created it.

Of course once you learn the spell, you can make items at 50% cost and then turn around and sell them at market value. Not in most campaigns I have seen.

Ah... the PC's are the only adventurers in the world, then? Granted, it takes quite a bit of time to find a buyer who is willing to pay more than half if intended on resale, but an end user probably should be paying approximately market value.

IMHO, the Craft Wand feat is the most useful. Since you can have on tap up to 50 spells that are very useful, but not ones that you would want to memorize all the time. Having a Wand of Invisibility (CL 3) gives you 50 30 minute duration Invisibility spells at your finger tips for a mere cost of 2250, 5 days, 180 exp. BTW, same cost for a Wand of Cat's Grace that you can use to enhance the whole party. (You still have to be at least 5th level to do this.)

I'll Agree with you there, wands and scrolls. (scrolls for the spells you really only need once in a blue moon)

Rav

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The blessed book is all you really nead to get around the problem. Lets see 7th levelish you should be able to make one at 4,500 gp cost to make all you have to do is charge the fighter 3/4 market price instead of cost for the next weapon you make him and then pwang you have most your money back. Yeah that really limited the mage. It is a cheezy "limitation" that if meant for balance they royally screwed up on since it doesn't really limit the mage except at fairly low levels.

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

The blessed book is all you really nead to get around the problem.

It has its own costs. it REDUCES the cost per spell down to around 200 gold per spell if you can FIND one or to 100 gold per spell if you can make it (requires feat, XP and time if you can find the components.)

Lets see 7th levelish you should be able to make one at 4,500 gp cost to make

Size of town with 4500 item for sale, not terribly common. Frequency of items over 3000 gold, not comnmon. Time... 10 days assured of now interruptions... varies with campaign.

all you have to do is charge the fighter 3/4 market price instead of cost for the next weapon you make him and then pwang you have most your money back.

Uhh... OK it seems like you think now gold is not a limiting thing for a mage... and we can even wave off the time and XP requirement stoo since its yet another case of spending time and Xp and yet another feat to make up for the money lost here on the BBB...

I will have to agree if time and money and Xp are not limited resources in your games... then spell scribing costs are not much of a limiter at all.

For others tho...

Yeah that really limited the mage. It is a cheezy "limitation" that if meant for balance they royally screwed up on since it doesn't really limit the mage except at fairly low levels.

see above...