Would reducing spellscribing costs break anything?

[Malin Genie]

I have a different take on the spell scribing costs. IMHO it isn't there to 'screw' wizards but to make sure that the wizard in a campaign where scrolls can be freely bought, plenty of other wizards exist and will sell their spells, and enemy wizards have spellbooks that can be captured; is not insanely more powerful than a wizard in a campaign where spells are rare and hard to come by.

 

[JLXC]

Wow I love it when people find CHEESY loopholes and then act like other people are stupid for not exploiting them! Wow! So much talent!


As is the price is pretty steep. I have a 7th level mage in the group and to add 2 spells of each level to his book (which is very small BTW) would take almost 1/2 his gold for leveling up. This limits him totally, and no he doesn't have Item Creation Feats. Unless some other mage lets you use their spellbook you are screwed. 200 GP per level of the spell PLUS the cost of the spell if you have to buy the scroll = HUH?

The 7th level rogue just bought Elven Cloak AND Boots and all the time nobody in the party can spot him unless he wants. The mage gets a few spells and then spends money to get more potions and wand charges he used to help the group. WOW. That sounds like the way Wizards should be treated.

 

[Marshall]

It has its own costs. it REDUCES the cost per spell down to around 200 gold per spell if you can FIND one or to 100 gold per spell if you can make it (requires feat, XP and time if you can find the components.)

Uh, yeah. Sorta. But that also doesnt take into account the other benefits of BBB. Size, Carrying capacity, ease of use.

Size of town with 4500 item for sale, not terribly common. Frequency of items over 3000 gold, not comnmon. Time... 10 days assured of now interruptions... varies with campaign.

If you mistakenly assume that the cost of MI creation is one item, than that could be a problem. By the actual rules a pile of 4500gp changes into the appropriate MI. It could also be 4500 1gp items or anything else. Both the scribing an IC 'guidelines' assume the components are readily available, just ridiculously expensive.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Wow I love it when people find SHEESY loopholes and then act like other people are stupid for not exploiting them! Wow! So much talent!


.

I think your reading way too much into it. Who ever said you're dumb for not taking advantage of the loopholes. All that has been said is that its dumb to build a limitation and then build in loopholes around that limitation if you actually want it to limit people. Which is why I say if the rule was placed in the game to limit people they screwed up since a limit that has loopholes isn't much of a limit. How you want to play your character is up to you and I could care less. Since this is a game, as long as you have fun nothing you do is dumb.

For a character who doesn't make items, or doesn't use a loophole the cost is enormous. You end up with less equipment than anyone else in the party in order to up your spell list a smidge past the sorcerers, and you still have to memorize spells.

 

[Petrosian]

By the actual rules a pile of 4500gp changes into the appropriate MI.

Really, please cite me the rule which says that a pile of coins turns into the magic item!

The phrase i see all over the item rules is...

"Additional costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic "

Under scribing rules "Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell (special quills, inks, and other supplies) cost 100 gp per page."

Which clearly indicates other materialsd are used and tells you where there cost is represented.

NOTHING NOWHERE ANYWHERE in the core books or IIRC the class books produced by wotc says...

1> Piles o' Coins turn into items
2> materials usedf for making items are NOT subject to availability rules/guidelines like all other items are.
3> Piles o' Coins turn into spell pages.
4> materials used for spells scribing are NOT subject to availability rules/guidelines like all other items are.

If I am incorrect, show me where it says these things.

A statement of cost expressed in GP to do something is NOT the same thing as saying piles of coins turn into an item. its not anywhere close.

There are a greta many things made up of more than one "piece" which have a cost which is used for availability... a healers kit, say masterwork, is mentioned as having multiple doses and different materials, artisans tools, again lets say MW, have multiple tools not just one tool, etc etc many armors describe multiple pieces...

for all of these their availability in smaller towns is subject to the pricing guidelines per town size etc... there is no "well divide the price by how many different parts" to let them slip under the wire allowing you to buy all the "parts" and bypass these limits...

It works fine for those items and their materials...

Of course a Gm can alter these rules/guidelines for his campaign. rule-0 is great, but to then act as if it isn't a change?

First we literally have someone making the pile o' coins argument... meaning we have a troll with 250 silver coisn in his pocket and so we camp in his lair for a day and the wizard according to some literally turns the 250 silver coins into a scroll of expeditious retreat and mage armor? Any rule support this? Nope. no more than the rule which says a saddke costs 20 and a pack costs 5 means he could turn them into a pack and saddle.

Then we might have the even wierder argument... a wizard needs an expensive jacinth to cast astral projection, worth at least 1000. The material component is under the restrictions for item availability.... but he also need 1800 gold in materials to scribe the spell.... but apparently some dont think that HIGHER VALUE stuff is under any restrictions...

If you think that somewhere it is written that any of these are true, please by all means show me the text. If you think that when a single price is given for things made up of multiple materials/pieces etc that this means they too are exempt from the pricing rules/guidelines, please , again, show me the cite.
Until then, I see nothing beyond wishful thinking to indicate that materials used for magic item creation or for spell scribing are not subject to the same availability based on cost and region rules/guidelines that ALL OTHER ITEM/EQUIPMENT/MATERIALS are.

awaiting the quote...

I am sure it exists...

 

[Shard O'Glase]

All you need is access to a small city to easily reach the gp limit to make a blessed book. Now in some games people have some issue with people making items maybe its a good idea to make sure there aren't any small cities around that 7th level adventurers can reach. Me though I don't try to back end in a low gp game by handing out the gp, but making sure there is no place on earth to spend it. If I want to run a low resource game I'll just come out and do it, letting the players know in advance.

And as for your quote I don't know if there is one, there have been multiple designer comments on the issue though. And they all said unless you are doing the power component option you assume the materials are readily available the player just shells out the money. Of course you can argue that they meant readily available in the sense that they follow the standard availability rules if you want.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

From a player's point of view, having to pay the scribing costs can get on your nerves. While a wizard will spend 1-2K on scribing, his fellow adventurerers are puchasing a magic item or two. So the wizard knows an extra spell or three, not a huge advantage given he still must prepare all spells in advance.

As far as the cost itself, I call it a "wizard tax". I don't see the rationale behind "magic ink and quills" and wonder what the difference is between those particular inks and quills and the type of ink used in the libraries to copy books (which last for hundreds of years). Personally, I favor a 10 gp/page approach because writing is writing, whether it be a poem, story, or spell. Scrolls, on the other hand, are actually magical, so they need special ingredients, however I do not see the case for special ink in the case of spellbooks.

 

[Petrosian]

And as for your quote I don't know if there is one, there have been multiple designer comments on the issue though. And they all said unless you are doing the power component option you assume the materials are readily available the player just shells out the money. Of course you can argue that they meant readily available in the sense that they follow the standard availability rules if you want.

I buy dragon. i buy dungeon. i read the boards here and at wotc.

Definitely do not recall any designer saying "pile o coins" poof "magic item"...

 

[Marshall]

"Additional costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic "

Yes, Thank you.
It costs x amount to craft a ring. However that x is completely undefined. Its reasonable to assume that x could be a 'pile of gold' since the only MI that even comes close to defining exactly what you need is scrolls and that only says "a supply of choice writing materials" And that a wizard should be assumed to have or Where do the 2 free spells per level come from?

Under scribing rules "Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell (special quills, inks, and other supplies) cost 100 gp per page."

Which clearly indicates other materialsd are used and tells you where there cost is represented.

Well, again, Thank you for proving my point. You just named at least three different items for scribing spells into my spellbook.

NOTHING NOWHERE ANYWHERE in the core books or IIRC the class books produced by wotc says...

1> Piles o' Coins turn into items
2> materials usedf for making items are NOT subject to availability rules/guidelines like all other items are.
3> Piles o' Coins turn into spell pages.
4> materials used for spells scribing are NOT subject to availability rules/guidelines like all other items are.

If I am incorrect, show me where it says these things.

Its impossible to prove a negative. But on the other hand there are only oblique references to what that cost represents and nowhere does it even come close to saying that it should be considered one item(or Kit, if you want to be really cheesy) for determining availablity. In fact, if you consider that mundane spell components are always considered to be commonly available your argument falls flat.

There are a great many things made up of more than one "piece" which have a cost which is used for availability... a healers kit, say masterwork, is mentioned as having multiple doses and different materials, artisans tools, again lets say MW, have multiple tools not just one tool, etc etc many armors describe multiple pieces...

for all of these their availability in smaller towns is subject to the pricing guidelines per town size etc... there is no "well divide the price by how many different parts" to let them slip under the wire allowing you to buy all the "parts" and bypass these limits...

It works fine for those items and their materials...

Actually there are several instances where parts of the various toolkits are seperated out and could easily "let them slip under the wire". Many of the masterwork craft tools have been seperated out and enchanted in MoF, restocking a MW Healers Kit doesnt require a town where it would normally be available...

Of course a Gm can alter these rules/guidelines for his campaign. rule-0 is great, but to then act as if it isn't a change?

First we literally have someone making the pile o' coins argument... meaning we have a troll with 250 silver coisn in his pocket and so we camp in his lair for a day and the wizard according to some literally turns the 250 silver coins into a scroll of expeditious retreat and mage armor?

A: There has to be a rule to rule 0, and there are only item creation 'guidlines'
B: Yep, thats exactly the way it works.

Any rule support this? Nope.

Any rule to deny this? Nope.
Any 'guideline'? Nope.
Rule 0? Its all Rule 0.

no more than the rule which says a saddke costs 20 and a pack costs 5 means he could turn them into a pack and saddle.

What the Holy Heck are you talking about?!?

Then we might have the even wierder argument... a wizard needs an expensive jacinth to cast astral projection, worth at least 1000. The material component is under the restrictions for item availability.... but he also need 1800 gold in materials to scribe the spell.... but apparently some dont think that HIGHER VALUE stuff is under any restrictions...

If you think that somewhere it is written that any of these are true, please by all means show me the text. If you think that when a single price is given for things made up of multiple materials/pieces etc that this means they too are exempt from the pricing rules/guidelines, please , again, show me the cite.
Until then, I see nothing beyond wishful thinking to indicate that materials used for magic item creation or for spell scribing are not subject to the same availability based on cost and region rules/guidelines that ALL OTHER ITEM/EQUIPMENT/MATERIALS are.

Please show me where it says that 'ALL OTHER ITEM/EQUIPMENT/MATERIALS' includes the components for MI creation. But before that you'll have to show me What the components for MI creation are. To do that you have to ignore the 'Power Component' optional rule, since that clearly indicates that making components for MI creation not readily available is an OPTIONAL RULE

 

[Petrosian]

"It costs x amount to craft a ring. However that x is completely undefined. Its reasonable to assume that x could be a 'pile of gold' since the only MI that even comes close to defining exactly what you need is scrolls and that only says "a supply of choice writing materials" And that a wizard should be assumed to have or Where do the 2 free spells per level come from? "

Marshall... not defining the specifc materials needed does not mean you turn GP into them. Nor does it mean you can ignore accessibility. Few of the items used listed for purchase in the DMg list what they are made from in specifics. They just list a cost.

However last time i checked, no one was claiming masterwork healers kits are not subject to availability based on price and locale because the specific ingredients are not described.

As for where the two free spells comes from, being free they fit within availability costs just fine. Now if you want to argue that wotc should not have made them free, and thus ubiquitous, thats a whole nuther thing.

"Well, again, Thank you for proving my point. You just named at least three different items for scribing spells into my spellbook. "

When an "item" is listed as a single cost, and even when it is mentioned as being made up of various parts, the price given is used to determine availability.

"Its impossible to prove a negative."

I am not asking you to. I am asking you to support with one rule cite your "pile o coins" poof "magic item" claim... specifically that you turn coins into items and do not need to actually purchase materials. I have shown cites where materials are mentioned. You so far have shown nothing except how often you can say it is so.

" But on the other hand there are only oblique references to what that cost represents and nowhere does it even come close to saying that it should be considered one item(or Kit, if you want to be really cheesy) for determining availablity. In fact, if you consider that mundane spell components are always considered to be commonly available your argument falls flat. "

Mundane spell components are buyable for 5gp which fits well within the availability rules. No problem.

We are dealing with expensive components/materials here.

"Actually there are several instances where parts of the various toolkits are seperated out and could easily "let them slip under the wire"."

Huh? As far as i know if you want a MW tool kit you gotta buy a masterwork tool kit.

" Many of the masterwork craft tools have been seperated out and enchanted in MoF,"

OK so now we are talking specific magic items.

" restocking a MW Healers Kit doesnt require a town where it would normally be available... "

Show me where this is stated? Show me where a MW tool kit would be available in exception to the availability rules based on price and size OTHER THAN rule-0.

One cite.

"A: There has to be a rule to rule 0, and there are only item creation 'guidlines' "

No one can follow the guidelines. Thats not rule-0.

"B: Yep, thats exactly the way it works. "

Show me a cite. One line anywhere in the core books which says a pile o coins turns into a scroll.

One cite.

Not just you saying "thats how it works"

one cite.

you paid good money for those books.

use them.

one cite.


"Any rule to deny this? Nope.
Any 'guideline'? Nope.
Rule 0? Its all Rule 0. "

Rule to deny this already cited... rules specifically referenceing the cost of materials needed and rules for purchases in DMG limiting availability based on locale and price. NO EXEMPTION exists for magical materials. If you intend to continue supporting that arcane tools (scribing stuff) and arcane materials (for items) are somehow ubiquitous and not subject to the same rules which apply to all other tools, equipment and materials purchases... you have to show us one cite saying this is so. If you are going to claim coins poof into spells and scrolls and swords... you have to show a cite.


"What the Holy Heck are you talking about?!? "

You claim that because they only list prices and not materials coins turn into poof items... the example was a 25 gp scroll.

they do not list materials for a pack and saddle either...

so does this mean someone with a craft skill can turn coins into pack and saddle sitting under a bridge somewhere? No... it means he has to get somewhere and buy the materials to make a pack and saddle.


"Please show me where it says that 'ALL OTHER ITEM/EQUIPMENT/MATERIALS' includes the components for MI creation. "

This is a joke right? Once you have the general rule, such as "availability of things is limited by price and locale" then you do not need to list everything it apllies to... instead you now note EXCEPTIONS.

You are claiming an exception exists for magic items and for scribing stuff... yet i see no rule saying they are exempt.

You even carry this to the extreme of poofing coins into swords...

You need a cite to support this.

The fact that, like most equipment, the specific exact materials needed are not listed and just a price is does not support making these arcane tools exempt and leaving all the others covered.

"But before that you'll have to show me What the components for MI creation are. "

No i dont and neither do they. They dont tell you the specific component for sword making, for saddle making, for healers kit making, for alchemist fire making, etc etc etc .... they leave the specifics general and have general rules for availability based on cost and locale...

anyway... unless you have a cite to support... i wont bother much more with you on this... I can argue or discuss rules but opinions ... thats anuther thing entirely.