Would removing Superior Weapons open the game up more?

[Saeviomagy]

Which once again causes the player to cling to that type of sword in exclusion of all others.

Which they'll most likely do anyway. There are only a few weapons on the basic list that are worth using: anything else is essentially a trap that's best converted to one of the good ones OR can be made useful via feats. But once again - a PC who takes those feats will be best served sticking to weapons that let him make use of them.

The only way you're going to make the weapons system such that a PC doesn't favour one weapon over another is:
1) remove all differences between weapons (ie - you have one simple thrown/melee weapon, one simple ranged weapon and one simple melee weapon and it could be an axe, a sword or a club, do the same for martial)
2) make the differences between weapons so small that magical weapon properties drown them out (that means no +2 vs +3 weapons, probably change the rogue +1 with daggers to +1 with everything etc. High crit, versatile, thrown etc can probably stay, as can damage dice, but the high accuracy weapons will need to be changed so they matter)
3) make magical weapon properties so large that they drown out weapon properties (who cares if you're +1 to hit with your dagger when the new sword you got makes your at-will attacks into close burst 2s?)

 

[MrMyth]

If treasure isn't fun, removing superior weapons and just making them drops isn't gong to magically fix the treasure fun issue.

Well, I can't say I have a ton of evidence for it, but thus far it is certainly working out that way for me. Switching to a low-magic campaign with superior items and masterwork armor not commonly available has made players a lot more excited when they see them. An enemy knight dropped an ancient sword of nerath - the stats are basically just a bastard sword, but it has become one of their valued treasured. They've seen a merchant with a single suit of mithril chainmail for sale, and have been scrambling to find cash to try and buy it. For the same armorer, they've gone questing for drake hide to have customized sets of armor made.

In my last game, at Epic levels, even the most interesting magic items were.. novelties, at best. The PCs having open access to buy whatever they want meant they often wouldn't even want to trade up out of their 'ideal' custom-chosen gear. And if I instead just made that sort of stuff the treasure, they all just took it as the norm - ways of boosting their numbers, and that was pretty much all. I managed to get a few interesting or unique items into the group and there were times they had fun with them, but those tended to be the exception, rather than the norm.

 

[DracoSuave]

I suppose.

I've always felt that the way to make treasure interesting is to include more interesting treasure.

The game's not suffering from depth at the weapon level... it's the wonderous items, and hand items, and head items... there's just not a lot of interesting effects in there that you can use creatively.

Your neck, weapon, and armor? Business time. Making other business time aspects of the game part of treasure doesn't make things more interesting... it just changes what 'business' treasure is dealing with.

What's the fundamental difference between finding a +2 sword replacement for your +1 long sword, or a +1 bastard sword replacement for your +1 long sword? You're really just doing the same thing; changing numbers on your character sheet. Neither of those are particularily interesting a change.

Contrast with finding an apparatus of kwalish. Or a ring that allows you to teleport three squares as a move action. Or immovable rods.

This is where magic item creativity takes hold... where you find effects that transcend level, and go into 'interesting' lands where you can actually use them to solve problems and interract with the world outside of attack and damage rolls.


If you want to make treasure interesting, don't put more 'work' items in there... throw in more 'toys'.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

A lot of good comments here. Weapons are a very important part of both fluff and mechanic for many characters. As an example, I have just started a Thief who uses a Sling due to her background. Though I won't get to them for a while, I am glad that both the Sling Expertise and Deadeye Slinger feats are available, and that both of them have more than just a single effect.

Personally, I would love to see some careful, targeted reintroduction of the feat-tree concept, as seen (in ridiculous excess) in 3e with Dodge + Mobility + Spring Step + Expertise -> Whirlwind [did I get that right?]

Instead of Superior Weapon Proficiency [Execution Axe], maybe a set of feats like this (feats depend on some or all feats above them in the list):

Oversized Axe: Increase the [W] value of any Axe by 1 step, e.g. d8 -> d10

Scathing Axe: Do half damage with any Axe whenever you miss by 3 or less and do not roll a 1. (As usual, minions do not take damage on a miss)

Sweeping Axe: When you score a critical hit using any Axe, you may make a melee basic attack with the same Axe against an adjacent enemy. Damage from this melee basic attack is half normal.

Awesome Axe: When you reduce an enemy to 0 hit points using any Axe, enemies within 5 squares of you take a -2 penalty to attacks until the end of your next turn. If the enemy was a minion, the penalty is -1 instead.

Blocking Axe: When you take the Total Defense or Second Wind action while wielding any Axe, you may reduce the damage from melee attacks by 1[W] (Axe wielded) until the start of your next turn. (Reduction is No Action)

-- Note: I have no practice writing feat descriptions -- these are just the general idea.

Heavy Blades, Light Blades, etc., would all have their own trees. Group combinations (e.g. Axe+Spear) would have their own special trees, and the groups would be mutually exclusive, so a Gouge user could "climb" the Axe tree, the Spear tree, or the Spear+Axe tree, but not more than one of them.

Comments?

 

[Evilhalfling]

One other benefit of removing superior weapons is that you excise Brutal from the game, pretty much. And good riddance

I could use less brutality in the game.
Except the Gauntlets of Brutality(+5 dmg vs prone), which even though they are listed at too high a level (17), are still enough to make one of my players drool. Yes paragon G.s. of Blood are more efficient, but the man just likes to knock stuff down then hit it with an axe.

Back (almost) on topic the PC is a goliath with a greataxe - and axe expertise almost provides brutal 1 anyway.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I am getting closer and closer to thinking that most feats should be magic item properties. And that all superior weapons nad implements should be magic item properties.