would this be evil?

[Edena_of_Neith]

It is not evil.
It could make for an interesting start to the adventure.

Of course, if your party consists of highly moralistic characters, perhaps it was not so good a start to the campaign ...

 

[S'mon]

Kidnapping innocent person = evil, yup. Accidentally killing her is icing on the cake.

Edit: As has been said, this sounds a lot like a Coen brothers plot. As GM I'd say this evil act would be enough to switch Good-aligned PCs to Neutral, but not Evil, straight off. Certainly it was a somewhat Chaotic act also.

Also, I don't agree it was a bad GM call that the crit killed her - striking to subdue is still striking for damage, a crit is extra damage. A fumble would be missing her & breaking or dropping your weapon, or hitting another party member, etc.

Edit 2: Having said this doesn't make the PCs Evil per se doesn't mean that as a citizen of the town I wouldn't happily sentence them all to death - they're clearly a major Danger to Society! They're just too stupid to be (necessarily) Evil.

Re 'adventurers routinely commit murder' - it all depends on who you kill, and why. If you take out the goblin raiders who've been attacking local farmsteads, the typical D&D scenario, that's not evil. If you go slaughter the goblins who've never done any harm to anyone, that depends on the nature of goblins in the campaign - in my campaign it might well be evil, since goblins are just as much sentient beings as humans or elves, in some others goblins are inherently evil and killing them is always A-ok.

 

[Al]

Well, the question is potentially that of utilitarianism (i.e. the most good for the most people). I'm not always a utilitarian, but DnD lends itself very well to that kind of thinking.

So...the question is: what is this quest? How important was the rogue to the quest? Did it occur to you that you could release her any other way ? NB if you could, but didn't realise, that's simply stupid and not evil.

If the quest is of vital moral importance, the rogue is imperative to that quest, and it didn't occur to the PCs to try an alternative method, then it is not evil.

On any other condition (and given that it is *highly* unlikely that that particular rogue is vital, save the metagaming reason that 'she's a PC') the series of acts was, in fact, evil.

 

[Tsyr]

It is not evil.
It could make for an interesting start to the adventure.

Of course, if your party consists of highly moralistic characters, perhaps it was not so good a start to the campaign ...

Uhhhh...

Theif commits an unlawful act, if not an evil act.

Theif gets caught.

That SHOULD be the end of it.

Instead, the party kidnaps -a crime, and an evil act, in almost any culture or law system you care to name- an innocent (and from what I've gathered, evidently a child to boot) person who was -in no way- involved with the events, except by virtue of blood. And their reason was to force a figure of justice to pardon a criminal who was rightfully convicted of a crime that doesn't even seem to have the virtue of need behind it. (IE, the theif wasn't stealing a loaf of bread to survive).

Then they kill her. And legaly, it's murder, not accidental death... since they were already involved in a crime against her (kidnapping), any death resulting is legaly (and, IMO, in fact as well) murder.

How on EARTH can this not be evil?

It was damn stupid too.

 

[Wolfspider]

I'll third (or fourth) the opinion that the DM really made a bad call by havinng a critical SUCCESS result (essentially) in a failure.

 

[Numion]

I'll third (or fourth) the opinion that the DM really made a bad call by havinng a critical SUCCESS result (essentially) in a failure.

I agree. But as a DM I'm also against rewarding someone for the brilliant idea of hitting a defenceless child with a sword, even though it was just for subdual.

 

[hammymchamham]

You are in a group with a rogue that like stealing. She wanders off one night before an adv (to make a lil money) and is caught stealing from a high ranking polit figure. You need to get her out of jail by tomorrow in order to go on your way (and will prolly never come back to this town).

So you kidnap the politician's daughter and hold her ransome. While holding her hostage, she wriggles free from the mouthpiece and starts to scream. You hit her with the back of your sword to subdue her, but crits. the DM rules that you hit her so hard that she is bludgeopned to death.

Puting aside that you now have to deal with the law, but was that act evil? was the kidnapping evil? hitting her to shut her up? and what happens now? The adventure hasn't even started yet and we are in a heap of trouble.

Ask yourself this, if someone kidnapped your daughter (son, wife, husband, parent etc) and killed them, would you consider it an evil act?

If you don't, I'm more worried about you than the consequences of the games actions....

 

[Bonedagger]

Well. The players didn't intent to kill the girl. It was the DM who decided that the subdual should be leathal. In D&D not following laws is not necessarily considdered evil.

That their surroundings may considder them "evil" is another thing. Back with the alignment stuff eh. Is evil a cosmic constant or is it just an individual definition.

 

[Mort]

Well. The players didn't intent to kill the girl. It was the DM who decided that the subdual should be leathal. In D&D not following laws is not necessarily considdered evil.

That their surroundings may considder them "evil" is another thing. Back with the alignment stuff eh. Is evil a cosmic constant or is it just an individual definition.

I'd agree that not following laws is not necessarily evil, but here I don't see how you can label the PCs actions as anything but.
The PCs kidnapped an innocent, obviously to make a trade for their PC thief. For the kidnapping to mean anything (from a bargaining perspective) there would have to be the threat that something could happen to the innocent.
Sure it could be a bluff, but I think even threatening to kill an innocent to get what you want is a definite evil under most circumstances.
By the way, what is the (supposed) alignment makeup of the group, it was never mentioned that the group is a bunch of good characters (though the whole scenario played out as chaotic stupid)?

 

[Bonedagger]

I'd agree that not following laws is not necessarily evil, but here I don't see how you can label the PCs actions as anything but.
The PCs kidnapped an innocent, obviously to make a trade for their PC thief. For the kidnapping to mean anything (from a bargaining perspective) there would have to be the threat that something could happen to the innocent.
Sure it could be a bluff, but I think even threatening to kill an innocent to get what you want is a definite evil under most circumstances.
By the way, what is the (supposed) alignment makeup of the group, it was never mentioned that the group is a bunch of good characters (though the whole scenario played out as chaotic stupid)?

To say if it was evil or not I would need more info. Was confronting the politician a valid option? Why do they need to be on their way? What is the characters view on the politician?

Kidnapping the good politicians innocent daughter just because they need to hurry to another town so they can get good seats in the springplay would be evil.

On the other hand. If they are short on time for saving the nation, laking the power to free their "theif" and knows about the politicians reputation for cruelty. Then I would still call their action stupid and naive but not necessarily evil.