Would this qualify as a chaotic nation? (somewhat long)

interwyrm said:
I think it's possible that a chaotic society could be maintained as a system of cliques run by individuals with strong personal power, each manipulated by a single entity into constant conflict with the other cliques until a common enemy presents itself.

That was kind of what I was getting at - it was formerly a very lawful and orderly society. Now, it's run by individuals who enforce laws at their whim and those laws that they chose to enforce may differ from town to town and from province to province. The only way to not fall victim to this "enforcement" is to either befriend a higher level official, or to be friends with the same level official from outside the area. Almost like each town is run by their own competing mafia don, and the only way to avoid trouble is to be "friends" with a higher level don.
 

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HeavenShallBurn said:
If you want Chaotic use real world equivalents to model it off of, places where law and order are a function of individual power. Somalia, Sudan, the American frontier during its expansion. South American countries rocked by revolution, counter-revolution and general dissolution of authority. These are the things you want to model for Chaotic nations.
Actually, most tribal societies are pretty chaotic - most tribal chiefs are followed because they (and their advice/opinions) are respected by the tribesmen, and not because the chiefs' will is enforced by any system other than, maybe, group pressure.

Lawful societies have institutions, codified laws, clear-set positions of power and a consistent application of that power. All modern states are lawful in that they have bureaucracy, complex legal systems, governmental hirarchies, and insitutionalized law-enforcement. The "seperation of powers" common to most modern republics is a very lawful invention in D&D terms: it defines the exact authorities and limitations of each branch of government, as opposed to, for example, the ability of early-medieval nobles to fullfill all the functions of government (making laws, judging people, making decisions) within their fief.

Chaotic societies may have customs and leaders (or bullies in an evil society), but far less is set in stone nad far less is institutionalized. Decisions are made individuall on a case-by-case basis, or on a whim, but not according to any codified system. Early feudal societies were chaotic, as the whole thing relied on oathes of fealty and on a personal relationship between vassal and liege-lord; on the other hand, the Catholic Church was very Lawful, with very complex legal codes and a convolved hirarchy of funtionaries.

In a Chaotic society you follow a leader because you respect/like/love that leader (Chaotic Good), because it looks like a good idea at this moment but could change in a few minutes/days/years (Chaotic Neutral) or because he/she scares/beats/bullies the hell out of you. In a Lawful society you abide by the law because it makes life easier/cleaner/happier/more harmonious and is a good set of laws (Lawful Good) or because breaking a law is punished (Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil).
 


Endur said:
I vote neutral. As others have said, a chaotic nation is much more disorganized than this.

I agree, the described nation is largely neutral with a slight lawful tendency. This is because the traditional organizations are still there and still powerful. The measure of lawfulness is not legality but order and for all that the nature of the organizations have been compromised the underlying order still exists.

I'm going to reference some real world example here but strictly as a matter of contrasting law and order, no politics involved, still anyone objects I'll dump them right off.
Lawful- This alignment is about order, about organization and collective behavior and patterns. Basically I would say that all nation-states are Lawful by nature. They can organize in different manners, have different views of what their legal systems will be but ultimately they will all share common characteristics of systemic behavior and patterns.
Example: Comparing, say the U.S., The EU, Russia, PRC, South Africa, Mexico, any number of others. The differences between any one and another can be huge, but they all are lawful because the basic premise of them all is that they are made up of organizations with delineated sets of characteristics rather than individuals.

Neutral- More difficult, because nation-states have a general strongly Lawful tendency. This is the region of nation-states with compromised organizations. Places where organizations exist and are the source and arbiter of power in the fashion of a Lawful state but individuals have managed to subvert the workings of organizations in their own favor. This is where the OP's example would sit, the state has an orderly system of governance that has been used by individuals within them as a device to extend their personal influence rather than that of the organization.
Example: can be found in nearly any nation to one extent or the other, but only truly affects the alignment of the nation as a whole once the bevior reaches a scale that is systematic of itself. A good example would be The U.S. during the Teapot Dome scandal a bit over a century ago. Individuals with positions within powerful organizations using that power to subvert the orderliness of the system for their own personal gain.

Chaotic- This is the most difficult because nation-states can't be chaotic and remain nation-states. As organizations within a state become more compromised by individual powers the systems themselves are weakened. A state can reach neutral with chaotic tendencies, but by the time it hits the chaotic region it has become a failed state as individuals assume the powers that were once held by organizations and displace those organizations that were necessary for the survival of a state.
Example: Failed, or failing states or those on the verge of becoming so. Somalia, Sudan, Nicaragua(during the late 20th), Sierra Leone during its civil war, Angola during the same, border regions of Sudan, DRC, and Uganda at various points over the last thirty years.
 

What about drow cities? Chaotic, but coherent

Drow civilization is chaotic evil, but there are laws and they are enforced. Yes, there is a "do what you can get away with" element to it, but avoiding retribution isn't always easy.

The crew of a pirate ship might be similar: some decisions made by consensus, others (in battle, mostly) made by the captain.
 

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