Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[Arani Korden]

(by the way, there is at least one religion that erroneously claims Jesus was really referring to grape juice, but they use water, not grape juice, during their services).

I will just bite my tongue and say that many EN Worlders are members of said religion, and that that sentence would have been just fine without the word "erroneously".

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Quote:
I was going to respond to Wild Gazebo's post but I got distracted, so I'll make the points here. First, it's incorrect to assume that modern ethics is possible because we no longer live in a brutal world.

My comment wasn't based on modernity it was based on situation...yeah, and I guess the absence of modernity. Though, I never...would ever suggest that we don't live in a brutal world, and it was not my intention to use that as an argument.

I think I got him on this track by saying that this paladin would fit well in games that are Dark Ages/Medieval in their brutality and coarseness, after you had made the point that we aren't using modern ethics. I haven't formally studied moral philosophy, but I've learned some informally about history and political theory. I feel a little outgunned here, but here goes.

"We" (industrialized nations, generally, though there are others) have tried to set the bar somewhat higher than it used to be. Campaigns that show the Dark Ages for what it was can give you some small hope that we've progressed in the past 1000 years (and especially the past 100), which I honestly believe to be true. Like you said, we have turned the idea of human rights into law; we have also placed limits on the use of power, and introduced the idea that government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. Horror still happens, but now it is recognized as such - what Crusader nation would have ever prosecuted soldiers for mistreating Saracens? Even 100 years ago in the US, could any black man have sued police for mistreatment and won a civil judgment? So, yes, we have a ways to go, but to say there has been no progress is unfairly pessimistic.

Pogroms went totally unremarked in 1000 AD; no remorse, no international condemnation, no memorials, no promise of "never again." Sanctuary only for those who had resources. It was accepted as "business as usual." There are parts of the world that are still medieval in outlook as I would characterize it. Saudi Arabia has an absolute monarchy and men have a great deal of power over their wives. Sudan has a tribal social structure and the Janjaweed marauders. So "our modern world" also includes areas that are, for a number of reasons, still our medieval world.

Fusangite writes that his campaign is medieval and that he therefore tends towards violent prudishness in paladin codes. The medieval paladin is less likely to approve of Sir Cedric's behavior than one a paladin operating by distinctively modern ethics.

The idea of vice would most likely be different as well as ideals. Beating small children into submission, selling slaves, burning witches, interrogating (torturing)suspicious individuals, having two of your thirteen siblings survive childhood, believing that a caste system is defined by a god, public executions, public brothels, ......ect(all everyday realities-not once or twice removed situations) would most likely colour your perspective of right, order, and justice.

Good points. Also, being free to beat your wife with a rod no thicker than your thumb, and forced conversions. If we've made any progress, it's shown by the fact that we think the above are wrong and now act to ensure that they happen less often. I'm not sure that Fusangite is right, because I don't know how much hypocrisy was ingrained into those orders. That is, "chastity" may have meant "Don't sleep with well-bred free-born European Christian women," but had little or nothing to say about tavern girls, peasant women hoping for a nice gift, a Byzantine woman looking to keep her home safe during the sack of Constantinople, or the Arab Christian woman who serves in your castle in Acre. Again, I really don't know what the code meant for them.

 

[Piratecat]

I will just bite my tongue and say that many EN Worlders are members of said religion, and that that sentence would have been just fine without the word "erroneously".

Exactly. Editorializing one's religious beliefs is inappropriate here. Don't go off on a religious tangent, anyone. That includes getting into touchy disagreements about any real world religions.

Thanks to those people working to keep the discussion within appropriate boundaries.

 

[John Morrow]

Again, a well defined religious code of behaviour is needed to decide what is or is not acceptable for this paladins behaviour. Christian standards are just not an automatic default for moral behavior. Christians have raped, pillaged, murdered, and tortured in the name of God, making such behaviour acceptable and holy because high church officials said it was.

Just because someone claims that they are murdering children in the name of God does not make such behavior acceptable and holy. In fact, I think a lot of people confuse how cultures behave with what a culture finds good or acceptable. They are rarely the same thing. Just because a behavior is common in a culture does not mean that that behavior is either good or admired by that culture. In fact, you can find plenty of Greeks, Romans, and others who sound just like 19th Century Protestants when complaining out the excesses of their own culture.

While it is true, for example, that prostitution was historically legal and accepted in Japan, does that really mean that it was considered good or admirable? Did any Samurai want his daughters to become a prostitute? Would he marry one? And what do Japanese women think of their husbands going to other women just for fun? Could that be part of the reason why the marriage rate is so low in modern Japan, now that women have some say over their fate thanks to a post-War constitution pushed on Japan by the United States that grants them equal rights. Spend some time in Tokyo. Admire the posters telling men not to grope women in the subways. Widely done? Yes. Good? No.

And while it is true that many Christians raped, pillaged, murdered, and tortured in the name of God, it's also important to note that these practices were condemned by plenty of other Christians, both historically and today. It's important to note that the Inquisition had limits and followed procedures. And just because these people claimed that what they were doing was God's work does not mean that everyone believed it, then or now, nor does it mean that they were actually doing God's work.

Plus the statement that prostitution is always a situation of slavery is false. They often are, but there are also a number of places of prostitution that they can walk out and never sell themselves again. The world is NOT black or white and neither are places of prostitution.

No, the world isn't black and white but I think you'll be hard pressed to find any place where prostitution is better than a dull medium gray, where people are indifferent to it, or where people actually admire it.

Would you want your sister to choose prostitution as a profession? (Please remember that it is quite legal in Nevada, so objections on the grounds that it is illegal are not valid.) Would you want your daughter to choose prostitution as a profession? Would you want your mother to turn to prostitution to earn some extra money for the family?

For the men...

Would be indifferent to marrying a woman who was a prostitute or ex-prostitute? Would you want your wife to be a practicing prostitute to earn a little extra money for the family?

Remember, all of those prostitutes would be someone's daughter and could be someone's sister or mother. All of those prostitutes would be real women who have a life, dreams, and a future. And while it might make you feel better to think of prostitutes as willing women who enjoy their work, women who will suffer no social penalties for their work, and women who serve nothing but clients who treat them well, the real world just doesn't fit that ideal.

Or don't, if you are unable to set aside your personal bias'. Just be honest enough to say so to the player instead of just blindly enforcing your personal ethics and saying it is the "proper" interpretation of the paladins code.

A bias often at work here is a Hollywood bias...

If GMs provided settings that were realistic rather than what has been described as "Hollywood" earlier in this thread, I think that the reasoning behind conventional morality would be a lot more clear than people are claiming it is. It's easy to support recreational prostitution when you never ask the prostitute her name, never worry about how she got into the profession, never worry about whether she really enjoys it or not, never worry about what she does with the rest of her life, and never worry about what's going to happen to her when (and if) she reaches the age of 50 and can't find clients anymore.

 

[NilesB]

One of the big things about the Paladin class is its alignment requirement and its Code of Conduct requirement. The Paladin class has such restrictions on it because, otherwise, it would be a much more powerful class. The game designers decided to give the class wonderful powers but strict restrictions to balance it out.

No, the designers limited the Paladin for flavor reasons. Even without its restrictions its no more powerfull than any other PC class. (except the monk, but thats an arguement for another thread.)

 

[NilesB]

According to your worldview, perhaps, but some of us (myself included) espouse the concept of objective morality.

Explain to me how contacting dysentry is objectively virtuous, I'm genuinely curious.

 

[John Morrow]

I'm not sure that Fusangite is right, because I don't know how much hypocrisy was ingrained into those orders. That is, "chastity" may have meant "Don't sleep with well-bred free-born European Christian women," but had little or nothing to say about tavern girls, peasant women hoping for a nice gift, a Byzantine woman looking to keep her home safe during the sack of Constantinople, or the Arab Christian woman who serves in your castle in Acre. Again, I really don't know what the code meant for them.

I suppose that someone should point out that part of the reason why the Crusaders went on a rampage in Constantinople was that they thought they had a blanket Indulgence from the Church for all of their sins for going on the Crusade. I should also don't think that any of them would argue that many of the things that they did was following any sort of code of good, chivalrous, or Christian behavior. And it's pretty clear from the fact that they never bothered to achieve their stated objective that their behavior had little to do with being good Christians or doing the will of God.

[Edited to "throttle back" as per moderator's request -- please let me know if it needs more "throttling"]

 

[taliesin15]

Wow: what a stunning thread. Good setup/premise...

Since my campaign is primarily Norse in flavor, none of this so-called sinful behavior really violates moral codes...in fact, it seems like heavy drinking, cursing and wenching are moral norms in a Viking culture, that being Lawful Good would have more to do with honor and doing good and fighting evil

and it seems to me like his conduct in the brothel is entirely honorable and good...I understand that the biggest problem many Scandanavians had when the first Christian prosletyzers started showing up was the notion of a Virgin Mary--"what she's 21 years old, and still a virgin? What did she have very bad breath? Is she horridly ugly? Why was she so old and still a virgin?"

a Finn told me of traditions where everyone in the house would sleep huddled together under giant furs near the fire, so that children were taught that, ahem, "adult relations" were normal

one other thing, this Cedric guy reminds me of The Dark Knight version of Batman, or maybe one of the gruff cops on NYPD Blue, Sipowitz, before he got hit with a nine

 

[Piratecat]

John, time to throttle back. As I just said up-thread, this is not the place to discuss real world religion. Please return the thread to a discussion of fantasy-based religion and moralities, or closed it goes.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Explain to me how contacting dysentry is objectively virtuous, I'm genuinely curious.

I fail to see how dysentery has anything to do with the concept of objective morality.