Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[shilsen]

For me no alignment issues were raised... he adheres to the law and respects those that enforce it, be it local, business, or country. He does no evil and looks like he would defend good. All in all he's more LG than some and in fact most other paladins I know, and has more humanity and romanticism than any other I've seen.

I should have clarified that I meant "raised alignment questions with other DMs". I agree with you and think Cedric fits the PHB paladin as written. Unsurprisingly, some DMs would disagree.

 

[Buttercup]

even to the very pit of hell to die if that is required...

So I'm not the only one who keeps hearing The Impossible Dream in the background of this thread?

To fight without question or pause,
to be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause...

 

[Doctor Shaft]

A lot of these arguments are still focusing on the idea that Cedric could be a paladin if only he follows a few simple "acts" or "codes of actions." It's not really conduct because it the codes we're giving out here really have nothing to do with how he "conducts" himself at all. It just asks him to commit certain acts, and obstain from one or two specific others.

1.) Don't beat people up
2.) Fight evil to the death, wherever your God tells you it is.
3.) Champion the faith to the end
4.) Help people in need.

There's a few others, but they're all along the same vein. Basically, all Cedric has to do to become a paladin... is do a few good things. Otherwise, everything else from sleeping with women every week, having good drinks, and generally his attitude have nothing to do with anything.

The reason why I have trouble with this as a LG paladin is because this code is so easy to follow, that the party rogue could qualify. With flying colors. When you say that his mindset has nothing to do with it, that it's just what he does at the end of the day that counts, then I guess the halfling thief is also a paladin, or qualified for such. He doens't have to stop stealing, mind you. Maybe he's Robin Hood and he steals for what he deems a good cause. But as long as he's also willing to champion the faith, fight evil wherever, and help the needy, he's a paladin.

Someone mentioned something about cultures, and how culture would directly influence what kind of "paladin" would come out of it. And the silly question involved what a woman from the Sudan would classify as a paladin. While I guess it's a good point that each culture would have a different take on what makes a champion of their faith, I think you'll still find that Sudan woman likely claiming that a representative of her deity would still have more 'spiritual dedication' to the cause than Cedric had. Maybe he would still behave differently and have certain vices. But he'd probably have a lot more conviction than Cedric.

And that's the bottom line as to why I would let Cedric in my campaign, but periodically 'penalize' him at certain points. Cedric is a man of actions... but actions mean nothing. It doesn't matter if you give to charity all your life. That doesn't make you a good person. Or if you give gifts to your family every holiday, or on a birthday. To use one of those cheap phrases, "It's the thought that counts." Cedric is a pessimist. He does it, but he's no different from party fighter, party rogue, and party bard. They're all stuck in a war, they believe in championing the good, but ultimately they thinks it absolutley stinks. He's got the wrong attitude about the whole thing. He's willing to die -- but his reasons for dying are hardly virtuous at all. Sounds to me like he's willing to die only because he knows there is a good afterlife waiting for him on the other side. In a sense, about the only thing Cedric has that I guess goes beyond the mentality of the rogue and fighter is the knowledge that he technically isn't risking too much of himself in the process. Though he may die... his deity will be waiting to pick him up on the other side.

If Cedric is a LG paladin... then my drinking, brothel-owner, thieving rogue is too. Hey, we believe in the same causes.

 

[Lyriel Aelorothi]

My vote was no...this character concept does not meet the requirements of paladinhood in my campaign. With that said, it might be perfectly fine in yours. Get with your DM and see what happens.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Charlamagne's Paladins, whom D&D paladins are the most directly influenced by, make this Paladin look like a saint compared to what they did in their day to day lives, not to mention Charlemagne himself.

No.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Second... Even if a paladin has a patron deity, this deity does not necessarily have to be LG too. A common rule (e.g., in FR) is a maximum of 1 step removed. Somehow, I don't think we'd be having this discussion if we all were thinking of Cedric following a NG deity.

Not correct. The only good deity IMC is NG and as I posted previously, this character would not remain a paladin in my world.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

There is nothing inherently unlawful or ungood about patronizing prostitutes and drinking alcohol; goodness and evilness only attach to those actions from social context.

According to your worldview, perhaps, but some of us (myself included) espouse the concept of objective morality.

For goodness sake, God commands Christians to drink alcohol -- in remembrance of Him!

There is a difference between drinking wine during the Eucharist and being a drunkard (by the way, there is at least one religion that erroneously claims Jesus was really referring to grape juice, but they use water, not grape juice, during their services).

 

[drnuncheon]

This is about the only kind of paladin that would survive in Freeport, so for me...sure.

Now on to respond to other posters:

Write the story a little differently where instead of clean-scrubbed sluts who do it for fun (like the porn sites would have you believe), the prostitutes are abused, exploited, and trapped in a cycle of dependency if not actually enslaved. Then, when you write about Sir Cedric leaving the room and the guard checking the lock on the door so that the girl won't try to escape or the madame taking the money that they need to buy that cure disease (Sir Cedric doesn't need to worry about that, of course, but they do) so that they have to choose between curing themselves and feeding their children, and I'm betting a lot of the "yes" votes switch to no.

Sure. And write the story of a paladin visiting a mine where the miners are hard-working, well-fed, honest folk and you'll have a very different story than the story of a paladin who visits a mine where the miners are abject slaves living in fear and misery. That doesn't mean that visiting a mine, buying products produced from a mine, or even owning a mine is against the paladin's code.

Imagine if you were a deity. And you wanted to choose a champion for your cause. All your subjects are flawed. But as you're looking down from the sky or whatever, you come across Cedric. He's brave, he's touch, he fights to his death for the good cause. But... he also frequents the brothel on a whim and he likes to rough people up a bit sometimes when he's angry. And he shows no signs of changing his ways. Would you keep giving this guy your powers?

If I were a warlike deity whose primary focus was on defeating evil, why not?

As an aside, I find it rather amusing that so many people in the "what does a 2nd level commoner give a 12th level paladin" thread are replying "herself", but when a paladin pays for it, it's bad...

J

 

[Storyteller01]

Maybe it would, I still think that none of my LG deities would choose him to be their chosen one. I'd be interested to hear of any suggestions of why any LG god would choose him though. Most of them when picking one from a series of candidates won't immediately go: "Hey this guy would not be noticed in a brothel; I might be able to use him in a covert operation sometime in the future when there is a need for a righteous paladin to appear like a drunken argumentative self-righteous self-defeatist sleaze ball."

The best reason I can think of;

Player characters are not ordinary people. This person possesses the right mix of skills, abilities, and spirit to get the job done.

The short version: he's the only one who can handle the job.


Spawn is also a good example of this. When I stopped reading the comic (finances are a killer now), there was a war between heaven and hell. Each were looking for soldiers. Both sides were looking to recruit Simmons. In life, he was a dedicated soldier/assassin who killed on command as well as a loyal husband. Hell happened to get to him first, and they had to cheat to do it (fight for me, and I'll give you back your wife. Why make a bargain if he's a damned soul?). He continued his fight because he had no real choice in the matter, given that no matter how he fought (for or against Hell) he only aided their cause in the end. Even after his fall, heaven continued to alternately attempt bringing him to their side or kill him. He was simply to valuable an asset to let the enemy have.

Granted, Spawn in the least likely canidate for the LG alignment, but what he he have been like if he fought the same war, with the same ramifications, on the side of Heaven?

Then again, Cedric may be at the brink of swapping paladin levels for the Blackguard.

 

[CrusaderX]

Christian standards are just not an automatic default for moral behavior.

Sure they are, as long as those standards are actually defined. For example, in Catholicism's official Catechism of the Church.

Christians have raped, pillaged, murdered, and tortured in the name of God, making such behaviour acceptable and holy because high church officials said it was.

Ummm...no. Such actions were never defined as being good and holy according to official dogma.