Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[bodhi]

Have Gun, Will Travel

A lot of recent posts on the subject seem to be of the opinion that all that is required to be a paladin is what side he fights for. Is that really what you think? As long as he is smiting the right people and doing a good job of it, he's a paladin? If so, what, other than that he has kewl powerz instead of kewl feats, differentiates him from an equally (questionably) lawful good fighter?

I think that's really the core question here. What makes a paladin a paladin? IMHO, that depends on the campaign. Certainly, the "default" paladin is Superman. He fights for Truth, Justice, and the Lawful Good Way. His honor shines as bright as his armor, and his word is as true as his steel. It's a popular and powerful image. I just think that Batman (Miller's Dark Knight, as well as Adam West's "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!") can be a paladin, too.

 

[bodhi]

Even Superman (the Uberpaladin of all paladins, regardless of whether he's chosen by a god or not) has had to lie, cheat, and steal on occasion. And he can't be killed (DC has tried three times already!!)

Sure he can. He just can't stay killed.

 

[ptolemy18]

This is probably a CG paladin (Paladin of Freedom variant from Unearthed Arcana) who belongs to a knight order in which most of the time paladins are LG.

I agree, he sounds like a CG paladin.

If he were a LG paladin, I'd probably forbid this kind of sleazy behavior, but only because I prefer the idea of paladins as the Medieval "chaste and perfect knight"... so that even if they WERE drunk and womanizing they'd have to be penitent on some level.

One a similar note, has anyone checked out the "Ghaffir" class in Green Ronin's EGYPTIAN ADVENTURES: HAMUNAPTRA? It's a paladin variant that can be Lawful Evil, Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good; and instead of the normal paladin spells, their spell list includes the domain spells of their patron diety, like a cleric. It's a very cool "holy warrior" which could be adapted into many different D&D religions, and doesn't have much in common with the Medieval Paladin... (though still, it's not much like the paladin in this story.)

Jason

 

[WayneLigon]

Depending on the GM's world (ie, what is the status or nature of the brothel - If it's someplace like Lady Sally's from Lady Slings The Booze, then sure. If it's like the Slippery Lily in Thieve's World, no ) and what Code their order is suppossed to follow. Probably sure, I see no problem.

 

[Fingol]

There seems to be something in there about the mindframe of Sir Cedric:
One moment he calls himself the chosen of his god and in the next he reveals that he thinks his cause is a futile one. I might be projecting a bit here but it sounds to me he doesn't belief he is making a difference at all. Which if he is the chosen one of his god doesn't that mean that he feels that his god isn't making a difference?

Calling himself stupid is like calling his deity stupid for chosing him. If I was his god I'd drop him fast and find myself someone a bit more effective. Someone who can make a difference, if only through fighting faster and getting more done in a day. Maybe a paladin that didn't drink and whored so much?

There are also undertones of: "I am making the ultimate sacrifice every day so I deserve some loving anyway I can get it." Where is he getting the money from to go drinking and whoring? From hoards from evil defeated who got it from the same people he is now exploiting with the same wealth/ power. If all the girls in the brothel had to do was once a week service a handsome healthy smart paladin their lives would not be so bad. But I am picking that if they need to be cured of disease regularly that the rest of the 20 plus clients that they serve every day of every week while too drugged or drunk to notice are not as handsome smart or healthy as our 'hero'. I could go on raving but I'll stop here.

He'd not be a paladin in my game. No LG god would choose him.

 

[Storyteller01]

There seems to be something in there about the mindframe of Sir Cedric:
One moment he calls himself the chosen of his god and in the next he reveals that he thinks his cause is a futile one. I might be projecting a bit here but it sounds to me he doesn't belief he is making a difference at all. Which if he is the chosen one of his god doesn't that mean that he feels that his god isn't making a difference?

This does make an interesting story device though:

Suppose he has no choice? He was picked for some reason that neither he nor the priests can fathom and given special abilities to fulfill the will of that god. He has no choice in the matter, and his very nature ensures that he's still lawful. There are more than a few LG gods who can be this heavy handed.

The 'Orion' shortstories that Dragon mag used to print make an excellent example of this, even if it was a good hero/evil god senario.

 

[Yair]

No

Forgive me if I'm reiterating things already mentioned, I didn't read the whole thread.

I wouldn't allow him for one principal reason:
I think the background takes a light-hearted approach to a prostitute's hardships. I think it violates "a concern for the dignity of sentient beings" [from the definition of Good] in all but the most extraordinary circumstances, and is unlawful to boot. While sometimes it would be possible, generally IMCs prostitutes are too derelict and oppressed that hiring them would be respectful of their dignity. It would fall under "oppressing others" as an Evil act.
Note he can sleep with them, if both of them want to, and can give them money as charity. But he better be careful he is not exploiting their hardship, as that would be oppression.

His lack of faith in the worth of his actions makes them hollow and meaningless. While not a violation of the Code of Conduct nor Evil, I fail to see how a religious character can lead a rightous life with no faith in its worth. I will expect the character to either find out why he's so adamant in upholding the Code and avoiding Evil or lose his conviction and fail to hold them when tested. That actually should make for some great roleplaying, tempting me to allow the character... but making clear hiring the services of a prostitution is an Evil act IMC.

I would allow the character as a cleric of a LG paladin-like deity. Clerics don't have to be perfect, paladins do. Tough.

 

[Fingol]

This does make an interesting story device though:

Suppose he has no choice? He was picked for some reason that neither he nor the priests can fathom and given special abilities to fulfill the will of that god. He has no choice in the matter, and his very nature ensures that he's still lawful. There are more than a few LG gods who can be this heavy handed.

The 'Orion' shortstories that Dragon mag used to print make an excellent example of this, even if it was a good hero/evil god senario.

Maybe it would, I still think that none of my LG deities would choose him to be their chosen one. I'd be interested to hear of any suggestions of why any LG god would choose him though. Most of them when picking one from a series of candidates won't immediately go: "Hey this guy would not be noticed in a brothel; I might be able to use him in a covert operation sometime in the future when there is a need for a righteous paladin to appear like a drunken argumentative self-righteous self-defeatist sleaze ball."

 

[Li Shenron]

Just wanted to chime in quickly and say these...

Your character concept is overall fine itself, I'd have nothing wrong with it.

As a DM I have often encouraged players of Paladin characters to think of a code of conduct themselves, according to the patron deity/deities for example (or whatever the Paladin has a "higher referent"), without feeling restricted to the PHB code of conduct, which I regard as one example.
I even nowadays allow Paladins of different alignments, in the sense that the concept is extended to that of a "(un)holy warrior", but that is another story.

However your description seems to me quite bland and undescriptive... this because IMHO the idea of a Paladin is that of a dedicated character, and who has a supernatural or mystical spark (being a "chosen" for instance). This supernatural dedication is kind of what makes a Paladin different from any LG warrior.
Anyway your description just says that he goes around the world, fights evil, protect innocent... does he have to be a Paladin to do so? If you don't add anything special, it's "just another warrior class" which you may take of course if you prefer its combat features more than the fighter's bonus feats, but it would not feel different.

So a Paladin has an aim that goes beyond mortal bounds. It could be as simple as the "triumph of good in the universe". He follows that path relentlessly, sacrifices his own life for it, doesn't waste time in what distracts from the path. The code of conduct helps him doing just that, and furthermore the code defines the means he is supposed to use or otherwise shun to pursue his path.
An evil Paladin should have his code too, which would still tell him what he is supposed to do and what he should never do, if he wants to pursue the "triumph of evil" or whatever. Also note that a Paladin believes in that code as a cosmic truth, otherwise he wouldn't be a Paladin (or wouldn't be "chosen").
I'd let a player invent her own code of conduct, but it seem to me that your description focuses only in what is NOT in his code, what is not either a duty or something to avoid... If sexual intercourse is not forbidden by his code, why focus on that? He would probably not be interested usually, since it doesn't help him in his path either. OTOH, it could make for an interesting Paladin if he's actually losing focus on his Paladinhood as he spends time in mundane activities instead of being in action.

I would never forbid you to play such a character but it doesn't seem memorable to me. And not even very original, at least in my own experience the most common way to play a Paladin is the old cliche' of ultra-moralist who detect-evil-kill-evil all the time, but the first variant to be conceived by players always seems to involve brothels for a reason...

 

[Darkness]

... the most common way to play a Paladin is the old cliche' of ultra-moralist who detect-evil-kill-evil all the time, but the first variant to be conceived by players always seems to involve brothels for a reason...

I think that's the second variant.

The first usually involves spiked black plate armor, a lot of attitude and kewlness, as well as a 180° shift in alignment.