D&D 4E Would you buy 4E if it were not open/had no licenses for 3rd party companies?

[essenbee]

Oh, it's named differently, it's called "Failure to understand how an open D&D does actually benefit you whether you buy 3p stuff or not."

Not at all. The question was "will it stop you buying 4th edition?" For me: No it won't.

 

[evileeyore]

Oh, it's named differently, it's called "Failure to understand how an open D&D does actually benefit you whether you buy 3p stuff or not."

Really?

Please explain how it benefits the non-D&D gamer.

See, I won't buy D&D products anymore**, so open, closed, half-open/closed... doesn't matter and won't impact my purchasing choices.

Unless your positing something I'm missing?






** I lie. If someone was to start putting out gazateers like the old "Grand Duchy of Karameikos" I might pursuade myself to pick them up. But honestly I don't see this happening, and frankly they'd probably be filled with too much "crunch" and not enough "fluff".

 

[Desdichado]

Oh, it's named differently, it's called "Failure to understand how an open D&D does actually benefit you whether you buy 3p stuff or not."

I don't see that option either.

 

[Henry]

I voted the third option, but with a comdition:

I'm at this time only planning to buy the first three books. Everything after that is extrememly iffy, depending on whether my group likes it or not. I'd be more heavily inclined to buy future products depending on the state of its openness, but I'm committed to buying at least the *ahem* CORE books. (And I mean "core" in its ORIGINAL meaning, not the new meaning...)

 

[I'm A Banana]

Except that IH is really only compatible with IH. You can't use it with the wealth guidelines in the DMG. You can't use it with the Magic Item Compendium. You can't use it with Elements of Magic. You might even have difficulty using it with the Monster Manual.

Well, I wasn't addressing compatibility. I was addressing quality. Is IH great? Certainly the consensus seems to be "yes!" Does Sword and Fist have its moments of lameness? Certainly the conesus seems to be "Uh-hu."

So in that comparison, I've shown that the 3rd party stuff can absolutely kick ass, and that the WotC stuff doesn't always kick ass.

Which was kind of my point: anyone avoiding the 3rd party stuff because they think it sucks hasn't seen much 3rd party stuff (though they might've seen some stuff that sucks), because there are VERY GOOD 3rd party products that stand up to WotC products.

Notice how later in the post, I compared Oathbound with the FRCS, which is two things that are generally considered great that are certainly on par with each other. Again, proving my point: 3rd party stuff doesn't always suck.

Note: I'm not saying S&F was great. But you also can't cherry pick one of the worst WotC products to put up against a pretty good 3rd party product. Try matching up IH and Tome of Magic or Draconomicon. Leave S&F to compete with some of Mongoose's early stuff.

When someone says "3rd party stuff sucks compared to WotC stuff," I can pretty much choose ANYTHING 3rd party and compare it to ANYTHING WotC. Because the argument runs: did you buy, say, the Arms and Equipment guide? Did you enjoy it? Then why the heck aren't you buying From Stone to Steel?

If you'll purchase and enjoy a rather sub-par WotC product, what stops you from buying the best of the 3rd party stuff? "Because it sucks" isn't a valid defense in that case.

And I would totally wager real American dollars (I know, not quite worth as much as Euros, but I'm patriotic like that. ) that the Arms and Equipment Guide did more sales than From Stone to Steel.

Which is part of why I pity those people who won't try the 3rd party stuff. Because their games are not improved as much as they could be. It's like someone who won't visit ENWorld for gaming advice because we're not owned by WotC, y'know? Wizards has no monopoly on quality gaming products, and it's really kind of a shame that some people continue to think so.

 

[bramadan]

- FFG is a primarily board-game company. In role playing arena its "Grimm" is at least as good as anything they produced under OGL. They currently have licence to all Warhammer titles and that will keep them busy for a good long time.
- Mongoose is a company with greatest possible quality swings (way bigger then WotC even). Its current "big thing" is RuneQuest which appears better designed then most of their OGL stuff.
- Green Ronin produced tons of (licensed) WFRP2 material - some of the best RP books currently on the market.
- Necro is a (so I hear) excellent DnD imprint - and Orcus himself claims that he would have no problem getting license to do "first edition feel" supplements for DnD.

As long as one understands that there is gaming beyond the little cocoon of DnD and its ruleset it is clear as a day that having OGL is neither necessary nor particularly important for the hobby.

 

[Umbran]

Oh, it's named differently, it's called "Failure to understand how an open D&D does actually benefit you whether you buy 3p stuff or not."

Let us be clear - "You don't agree with me so therefore you are either stupid, ignorant, or otherwise do not understand," is not what we consider to be an acceptable rhetorical construct around here.

People are free to have their own opinions, and failure to agree with yours does not mean they are not well-informed opinions. Different people have different priorities, and different needs. In this particular case, they may understand what benefits they might reap, but not care about them for some reason.

Keep your minds and ears open - listen, and don't come anywhere near being insulting, folks. Since this is, in effect, a discussion about a sort of public policy, it touches many hearts like politics does. If you folks start acting like people in a political discussion, so will we mods - and that means we'll put a stop to the discussion altogether.

If you've got a question about why we are asking you to be excruciatingly polite here, please take it to e-mail to one of the mods, and we'll try to take some time to explain it.

 

[Seanchai]

A great majority appear to be willing to buy into 4th Edition without any outside support. I am quite surprised at the magnitude of "pro-WoTC" feeling.

It's not pro-WotC feeling. It's pro-consumer feeling. I buy products, not companies, philosophies, or hypotheses.

Seanchai

Edit: Spelling. (I hope.)

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Under the completely closed scenario, I'll buy the first three core books, eventually--maybe ask for them for Christmas this year, but no hurry. After that, I expect I might buy as many as one other book a year, on average, for the life of 4E. A little heavier at first, trailing off to "no books" towards the end. With it completely open, I might buy one extra book per year, compared to that scenario.

I didn't find the 3.5 quality, whether WotC or third-party, deserving of more purchases than that. As always, a significant change in what is produced could change my plans, but I don't anticipate such a change.

Edit: That was a little harsh compared to my actual feelings. It's not merely quality, but the intersection of quality products with my tastes, that is the issue. Very few products that met my tastes were well done, and too many well done products cared so little for my tastes that I found them unappealing.

 

[bramadan]

It's not pro-WotC feeling. It's pro-consumer feeling. I buy products, not companies, philosophies, or hypotheses.

Seanchai

Exactly what he said.

I will buy DnD4 because (and insofar) as I believe it to be a good game. I will not buy it (or not buy it) to "support the hobby" or to "make a statement" or to "support WotC" or out of any other pseudo-political reason.

If an industry is reduced to a point where it needs its own customers to take into account its long term viability when making purchasing decisions then that industry has no long term viability.

Luckily I think it is not the case with hobby gaming.