D&D 5E Would you define the current edition of D&D rules-light or rules-heavy?

Would you define the current edition of D&D rules-light or rules-heavy?

  • Rules-light

    Votes: 65 62.5%
  • Rules-heavy

    Votes: 39 37.5%

Tallifer

Hero
In some ways, I definitively think 5e is heavier on rules than 4E. 4E had an elegant system which applied to every class and skill and power. All those endless feats and powers were simply variations on the basic rules. As a dungeon master I never had to know the ends and out of a class or different situational rules. When the player told me the exception his character made to the general rules i could immediately understand.

However, I did need to keep asking players to read out their powers and exceptional abilities to me. So maybe that is not the definition of rules-light. Still, it was much easier for me to adjudicate than 5E.

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redrick

First Post
I can at least see and understand the argument for rules-medium. I personally disagree, but I can acknowledge the principle, and I've made a similar argument for 4e. (I mean, I ran a 1-30 4e campaign and maybe twice, ever, cracked an actual rulebook open during play.) I'd personally put something like Shadow of the Demon Lord at the rules-medium spot - it has in-play lookup time like 5e, but the core systems are even simpler. 13A, maybe, as well.

I really can't see any argument for rules-light, though, having played and run actual rules-light games. I wouldn't even call BX/BECMI rules-light. Maybe if your only frame of reference is Pathfinder? I dunno.

Spells, man, spells. The downside of spells is that characters who know spells know a lot of them. Your first level Wizard and Cleric both have over a half dozen spells prepared, including cantrips, and the Cleric can choose from a much larger list every time they go to sleep. So unless you plan to memorize the details for dozens of spells, you need either cards or a book in front of you to play a caster. Or worse as a DM who has to run a caster.

On the other hand, spells are very discrete in terms of their function and are easy to look up — they're presented alphabetically. And you know which ones you use, so you can buy the cards or write them down.

Once you remove spells, and assume that your players have done their job and written their class features, race features and feat features out, there is not much you need to know to adjudicate all actions in D&D. The general-purpose rules content is pretty tight. You need to get the conditions down, but I find the to be very intuitive and haven't looked them up in ages. (I plan to cover the conditions up on my DM screen with information I don't know.) There's very little of the "If this thing happens then ..." style rules, which some other games are full of, and necessitate trips to the Index, because which chapter covered the rule for fighting while lit on fire? Was it the Combat chapter? Was it the Skills chapter (under the Firefighting skill, which allows you to add half of your skill bonus to mitigate the penalties imposed by the Lit on Fire condition)? Or was it under the Adventuring chapter under "Adverse and Harsh conditions?"
 

pogre

Legend
I define light as pick-up and play quickly with little or no previous experience. With this standard, any D&D is heavy.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Definitely rules heavy. I have seen rules light games and 5e is not one of them.

If you have to have a 300 page rule book then you are not rules light.
 

Obryn

Hero
Spells, man, spells. The downside of spells is that characters who know spells know a lot of them. Your first level Wizard and Cleric both have over a half dozen spells prepared, including cantrips, and the Cleric can choose from a much larger list every time they go to sleep. So unless you plan to memorize the details for dozens of spells, you need either cards or a book in front of you to play a caster. Or worse as a DM who has to run a caster.

On the other hand, spells are very discrete in terms of their function and are easy to look up — they're presented alphabetically. And you know which ones you use, so you can buy the cards or write them down.

Once you remove spells, and assume that your players have done their job and written their class features, race features and feat features out, there is not much you need to know to adjudicate all actions in D&D. The general-purpose rules content is pretty tight. You need to get the conditions down, but I find the to be very intuitive and haven't looked them up in ages. (I plan to cover the conditions up on my DM screen with information I don't know.) There's very little of the "If this thing happens then ..." style rules, which some other games are full of, and necessitate trips to the Index, because which chapter covered the rule for fighting while lit on fire? Was it the Combat chapter? Was it the Skills chapter (under the Firefighting skill, which allows you to add half of your skill bonus to mitigate the penalties imposed by the Lit on Fire condition)? Or was it under the Adventuring chapter under "Adverse and Harsh conditions?"
Yeah, that's a major component - but what's key about 5e here (and most editions of D&D and D&D-adjacent games) is that each individual spell operates as a keyword which can get re-used by monsters, magic items, NPCs, etc. That's what I said upthread - the text of Fireball is as much a rule as, say, the rules for Cover, because it will be referenced by other game content.

You don't get a Staff of Fireballs which can hurl X number of 20' diameter orbs, each doing Nd6 damage; you get a Staff which has charges with which you cast Fireball at various levels. A Gold Dragon doesn't know the following list of tricks with all the game text; she knows all of the following spells and can cast this number of them. And so on.

Oh, and since Storyteller came up, upthread...

Here's my favorite possibly-apocryphal Greg Stolze story, re: White Wolf and Game design.

[sblock]Older White Wolf games have three ways to scale difficulty, IIRC - you change the target number you need for successes on your d10's, or you change the number of d10's you're rolling in your pool, or you set the number of successes needed as something higher than one. So there's three axes along which you can adjust difficulties - or maybe it was just two of those? Hell, it's been forever since I played a WW game.

Anyway, when Greg Stolze went to work for them, he asked the designers how they decided which of these options to take, and what the various options meant for the mathematical chances of success on any given task. This is a completely obvious question that any RPG designer nowadays would expect, and should readily answer. But none of them had any idea - they just kind of operated by feel, and didn't see anything wrong with this. They knew what made things harder or easier, but not really by how much.

So if all of this is accurate, the Storyteller attitude of being above "roll-playing" went all the way up to the top, where the authors didn't even think the math underlying their dice rolls was important enough to figure out.

And that's how the One Roll Engine (the system Stolze used in REIGN) was born.[/sblock]
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I voted "rules heavy" but with a caveat: Dungeons & Dragons is, and always has been, rules-heavy in every one of its editions. By nearly every metric, a game with more rules than chess is going to be considered "heavy" on rules...or at the very least, it can't be called "rules-light."

This is not a critique, nor is it an endorsement. It's just one Moogle's observation.
 
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Jer

Legend
Supporter
No, despite the name "Storyteller" all of the WoD games in the 90's were both crunchy and combat-focused, with a kicker that the designers did a pretty bad job, and didn't even know how the math behind their own systems worked.

When I was introduced to Vampire in college, it had been talked up to me as a system that allowed you to focus more on narrative and wasn't so concerned about rules. When I read the rulebook to create a character for a game I was shocked at how heavy the game seemed to be. The GM for the game was really good and basically ignored most of the rules in favor of a) winging it and b) requiring us to know what our powers did because he wasn't going to be able to juggle them all. Which was I think a good call and made for a fun game.

I had been playing Torg for a few years at that point - a game that nobody would accuse of being rules-light. I thought then - and continue to think - that it was a better example of a game designed to help you focus on narrative than the Vampire rules as written were.
 

Sage Genesis

First Post
5e has a ton of spells, class abilities, and feats. It has bonus actions that are not the same as actions. There are attacks that are not Attacks. It has something called Armor Class and some effects provide bonuses to this score, whereas others provide alternative methods of calculation, and their interaction can sometimes get murky. It has special rules for fighting on horseback or underwater or in the air. It has rules for cover and concealment, which have different effects in combat, and both of which are measured in several grades of severity.

It's heavy. It might not be especially heavy within the context of D&D, but in terms of RPGs in general it's on the medium-heavy side.
 

Of the two options, I vote for Heavy, but what I really mean by that is bloated. There's a lot of unnecessary cruft to the game, which gets in the way of playing. Characters have abilities that rarely come up, such that it takes work to even remember that you have these options; and the way that some of those abilities operate is unnecessarily obtuse for what they're trying to do. That ranger ability to sense nearby enemies is probably the best example of this.

It's way heavier than it needs to be, given the basic mechanics. Half of the classes are minor variations on a theme, and it's impossible to describe the differences to anyone who doesn't already understand the rules for resting.
 

Rod Staffwand

aka Ermlaspur Flormbator
Rules heavy, obviously. The combat chapter alone has a word count longer than a rules-lite system's entire set.

Any system that has rules for the time it takes to put on armor is immediately disqualified from the rules-lite club.
 

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