Would you have allowed this?

[Enk&D'Shai]

What sort of tool/measurement device did you use to record the angle?

 

[Diirk]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I'd expect a character in this sort of setting to have memorized all the sine/tan tables, which would be the usual way of working something like this out...

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What sort of tool/measurement device did you use to record the angle?

Hell if I know. I'm not an engineer. I haven't even had a math class since calculus as a high school sophomore.

 

[Silveras]

My necrotheurge has a 22 Intelligence. In a search for the Big Bad, in his lair, he used locate creature and got a lock. During the search, there was a long (250 feet or so) descent, at which point the locate creature leveled out.

I asked my DM if my necrotheurge could use basic trigonometry to calculate a distance to the Big Bad ... basically, triangulation.

Would you allow this? How would you handle it? Spoiler below.

Spoiler

My DM took my suggestion, which was to allow it with a difficult Intelligence check (DC 25). (I figured that, yes, the math involved is simple, but there are bound to be distractions in-game that make it much harder than it would be in an academic setting.) He allowed the dwarf (who can intuit depth) to assist with the Intelligence check (he later said he only allowed it because of the presence of the dwarf, which I think is reasonable), and I proceeded to roll a 17, just making it. We then dimension doored into the Big Bad's lair, bypassing his guardians, surprising him, and making short (and anticlimactic) work of him.

I would not have a problem with triangulation. I *might* have a problem with the accuracy of the measurements, as others have mentioned.

Did your DM remember to carefully count out where you arrived, and apply appropriate damage if it was not open space ? If so, then all is good, and congratulations.

 

[iwatt]

Interesting question. I'm pretty sure I would not allow it. When I think of ancient engineering/mathematics, my mental image is having things (string, lines) laid out on a flat surface outdoors for easy measurements. I wouldn't allow it as a guesstimation from estimated distances underground where you're not exactly sure what your direction is or what's in the way.

And yet the ancient architects/engineers were able to lay straight lines and build structures accurate enough to be used even as astronomical tools. So somehow they were able to determine distances and angles with a high degree of accuracy...

If someone had spent skill points on the Sword & Fist skill Knowledge (mathematics), then I would be charitable and think about letting them do that.

I actually believe that the limiting of the knowledge skills was one of the better design decisions in D20 modern that was brought to 3.5.

It got pretty ridiculous there at the end with thousands of knowledeges. Pretty realistic, but a pian in the **s when you had to alocate skill points.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Did your DM remember to carefully count out where you arrived, and apply appropriate damage if it was not open space ? If so, then all is good, and congratulations.

No, we simply figured that if the wizard made the incredibly difficult Intelligence check, he calculated correctly. (Even with a +8, I needed to roll a 17. Which I did.)

As I think on it, it might have been better to make the DC lower (the math really is pretty basic), but make the roll in secret. Miss by more than 5, and the PC has successfully solved for "Ouch."

 

[Diirk]

No, we simply figured that if the wizard made the incredibly difficult Intelligence check, he calculated correctly. (Even with a +8, I needed to roll a 17. Which I did.)

As I think on it, it might have been better to make the DC lower (the math really is pretty basic), but make the roll in secret. Miss by more than 5, and the PC has successfully solved for "Ouch."

The math may be basic ( x = 250 / tan angle), but memorizing the table in question isn't...

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I would probably allowed a check, and if made, I would have told you what your character thought was an accurate solution.

I would NOT have told you what the exact DC was, so that you would have an element of doubt for your dimension door. The DM saying "you're pretty sure he's 350 feet away at a 30 degree angle up," is a lot different in the players mind than "make a DC 25 Int check and I'll let you do it."

As others have noted, there woudl be some difficulty in determining exact distances and angles. A rough idea would be fairly easily done, but to get a precise distance and angle, you'd need to explain to me in some detail how you intended to negate the problems of making accurate measurements.

I'd also probably give you a sliding scale of results. Low result, I might say "300-400 feet, at about this angle," moving my arm around the right angle, higher results getting better accuracy.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The math may be basic ( x = 250 / tan angle), but memorizing the table in question isn't...

It is when you have the Intelligence of a god.

 

[helium3]

And -- you quoted it yourself -- how well you reason. Mathematics is nothing if not starting with propositions and reasoning to conclusions, right?

Yes and no. Mathematics is an exceedingly axiomatic intellectual pursuit and therefore anything that is true is theoretically discernable given enough time. However, it is also highly dependant on a pre-existing body of knowledge built up over hundreds, if not thousands, of years of study and experimentation. Given the four basic mathematical operations and a base-10 place holding numbers system, but nothing else, how long do you think it would take you to "figure out" the basic tenants of trigonometry? Sure a hyper-intelligent wizard might be able to figure it out a lot more quickly than you, but he or she still isn't going to be able to get there from first principles in a matter of minutes.

Personally, BTW, I think Knowledge (mathematics) is way too limited a skill, which is why it didn't make it into 3.5. The Knowledge skills are all very broad. (You simply cannot be an engineer without a knowledge of higher mathematics, you know?)

Well. I wouldn't say that knowledge of engineering gives you the same degree of mathematics knowledge that knowledge in mathematics would. Essentially, it comes down to what you think the DC for the skill check should be. I would set it pretty high, considering that the solution to the problem involves multiplying the distance (250') by the sin of the angle. So, unless the angle is something common, like 45 or 60 degrees, the problem is tough without a calculator or a trig table.

Did I mention that I'm not really a simulationist DM?