Would you have allowed this?

[Coredump]

First, not sure if I would have allowed it. But that is because in my campaign the 'laws of physics' are not always what we think they are. A straight line may not always be the quickest way, etc. It is a different universe, with different rules. Sort of like how in medieval times they had 'proof' of things like spontaneous generation. Well, my campaign is in that world.



Now, aside from that. Having 6 ranks in a knowledge skill is good, but I would not say an expert. I like to think that I have many more than 6 ranks, and eventhought I don't have a 22 Int, I also only knew the trig table for a few important angles. (30, 45, 60, etc.)
I did know some *very* intelligent folks, and I will bet you $100 none of them had memorized the trig table. Now, I know enough to estimate sin and cos, and thus estimate Tan, but couple that with the estimated angle, and the estimated distance...... you could have had Pathagaras, Einstein, Feynman, and Hawking.... and they would not have been able to get a correct answer without lots of luck.

And yeah, they were able to do some really cool calculations, but at the same time they were doing even *more* that were wrong. How many other *geniuses* of their time calculated the circumference of the earth, and were way wrong. Or better, had 'proof' that it was flat? They could have had an Int of 22.....but they were still wrong. History is full of some very intelligent people, that did very careful calcuations, but were still way wrong.

And these calulations they did, were long, and application was difficult, time consuming, and took lots of resources.

But hey, you got to smash the BBEG....so cool for you guys.

.

 

[Jack Simth]

Come to think of it, you don't need to have the full tables memorized in the situation described - just a couple of them; in a straight up & down scenerio, you can pick your points until you have, say, a level reading and a 30 degree reading (or a 45 degree, or a 60 degree, or whatever is appropriet) for which you have memorized the values.

Of couse, it really only works out well if the BBEG stays in the same square....

 

[Stalker0]

I think people are seriously underestimating how smart a 22 intelligence is. It is quite likely that there has never been a 22 intelligence human on the planet.

The guy can probably do math in his head like a computer....if he had a clue about trig at all (and he did have knowledge engineering)...then I can see him coming up with an accurate sin/cos table on the fly.

I think your dm was spot on, a difficult but not impossible int check....great way to make that super smart guy actually feel really smart besides just...oh, another skill rank this level.

I would agree though, that a secret check might have been better in thsi situation.

 

[the Jester]

Hm, what are the odds he had some engineering books with him? Maybe he could have checked the tables after all...

Math: the ancients used trig.

 

[Snowy]

you don't need to memorise the tables of course you can just use the binomial expansion of the trig functions, I think its:

sin x = x - (x^3)/3! +(x^5)/5! - ...........

and

cos x = 1 - (x^2)/2! + (x^4)/4! - ............

As far as I can make out it was an interesting use of some of your knowledge skills (I often go with 10 + mod when I don't want to ask the players for a roll) and your characters intelligence and it used the skills of another member of the party (the dwarf).

Its interesting and alternative, If I was DMing I'd have dragged it out a bit, got the dwarf to climb up and down the shaft a couple of times, drop a rope and measure it (they must be all 50ft for a reason right? ). Sounds like a good bit of roleplaying.

 

[Tatsukun]

I like it! It's a good bit of role-playing. I think the wizard in my game would have just poly’ed into an umber hulk and dug his way in roughly the right direction.

I like your way better,

-Tatsu

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I think people are seriously underestimating how smart a 22 intelligence is. It is quite likely that there has never been a 22 intelligence human on the planet.

Not at all. You'd be implying that no one has ever reached 16th level, ever, and used all their stat bonuss on intelligence. Int 22 is really good - Einstein/Plato/Aristotle/DaVinci good, but not at all unattainable. In a D&D world, 22 is easily attainable, especially with all the races that give bonuses to intelligence at startup.

 

[Coredump]

Come to think of it, you don't need to have the full tables memorized in the situation described - just a couple of them; in a straight up & down scenerio, you can pick your points until you have, say, a level reading and a 30 degree reading (or a 45 degree, or a 60 degree, or whatever is appropriet) for which you have memorized the values.

Sure, that would help. But *how* do you do this? Even with a 22 int. Do you really think Int is even involved with this aspect?

Try this: stand next to a large building and stare at the 'other side' (ie. the focus point is 'through' the building.) Now walk 150', and stare at the same point, so you really think *anyone* can estimate that angle with accuracy and precision? Sure, maybe +/- 5-10 degrees, but do you k now how much error that will be?

I think people are seriously underestimating how smart a 22 intelligence is. It is quite likely that there has never been a 22 intelligence human on the planet.

As stated, a 22 isn't that hard to get. But this *isn't* simply an intelligence issue, it is a *knowledge* issue. The character only had 6 ranks in engineering/architecture. Yet he is supposed to have memorized the trig tables?

The dwarf supplies 2 "approximate" distances,
The mage guesses at an 2 'approximate' angles (even '90' is going to have error, especially at long distance, do you measure from your feet or head, is he moving, etc.)
Someone in the world has discovered Trig properties (in a world of magic, where trig is *not* needed...why bother?),
The mage had to have come across this knowledge (*LOTS* of buildings have been designed and built without much knowledge of trig, especially by those with only 6 ranks),
The mage would have to remember this knowledge (It isn't that important/useful afterall, he has *magic* to rely on.)
The mage would have to remember the actual trig values. (Lots of people take *years* of *engineering* and can't tell you even simple trig values.

So, even assuming all the last bits are true, I do not see how the approximations can be resolved.

 

[Jack Simth]

Sure, that would help. But *how* do you do this? Even with a 22 int. Do you really think Int is even involved with this aspect?

Try this: stand next to a large building and stare at the 'other side' (ie. the focus point is 'through' the building.) Now walk 150', and stare at the same point, so you really think *anyone* can estimate that angle with accuracy and precision? Sure, maybe +/- 5-10 degrees, but do you k now how much error that will be?

Granted, it might be a little difficult to get past the approximations, unless, you know, the wiz has some knotted rope and knows about the 3/4/5 thing for a 90 degree angle, or the whole equilateral triangle for 60 degree angle, but it is simple enough to pick your angles if you can put your two known points anywhere along a straight line - you continue moving and stop and check every now and again to see if the angle is the one you are after. If you go too far, back up a bit and check halfway between.

Also, your brain actually does that naturally for shorter distances - it's how you get depth perception.

 

[Coredump]

Granted, it might be a little difficult to get past the approximations, unless, you know, the wiz has some knotted rope and knows about the 3/4/5 thing for a 90 degree angle, or the whole equilateral triangle for 60 degree angle,
.

If you can only measure along one side, it doesn't help you estimate the angles. Sides a,b,c and angles A,B,C. The *only* thing you can possibley measure accurately is side a. (and that assumes the 50' rope is exactly 50', and you have enough of them, and they are knotted exactly right, etc.)