Would you like to see Psionics as core rules?
- Thread starter Oni
- Start date
John Crichton
First Post
Sure you do. I would just rather not see Psionics in the Core Books. I would rather have other things there. If one would like to add them to their game, there are plenty of ways to do so. I see nothing wrong with that.Oni said:
I'm not against it being in the game, just not in the Core Rules. It's really just my opinion of fantasy and I don't expect it to rule over all others games or gamer's opinions. I'm cool with the way it is now: a part of the game but not part of the core rules set.Oni said:
Oni
First Post
Tiefling said:
The Player's Handbook has sold well over a million copies. By my count this board has 8655 members, including alt. ids and lurkers and people who no longer post.
If you think how most polling is done that's a pretty good ratio. In fact I didn't realize we had quite that many members, so it makes me all the more comfortable with my previous assertion.
Tiefling
First Post
Yeah but it's not as if you stood the million people in a line and picked 8655 of them randomly. We all have regular access to the internet, are very "into" the game, most of us have experience with games other than D&D and we're very aware of the products that come out. I'm not sure most of the D&D population (yes, including the prospective market for the revised books) cares one way or another about psionics at all.
Amrynn Moonshadow
First Post
this may be a tad long...
lot of points on this thread, and everyone has an opinion. startling is that it's pretty much split down the middle. didn't know there were so many closed minded people who wanted to limit what was in their fictional imagination based game . . . but jokes aside, i'm glad i checked the boards for this.
i am a psi fan (and not a sci fi fan at all), and i want to write alot on this subject, but am pressed for time right now, regardless of what i think, it's just not happening. psions and psiwar will not be in the next (3.5) edition, nor the 4th edition, maybe the 5th edition.
it's mainly for an economic reason, and it has reprocussions down the line for everything. i think psychics need some sort of legitimacy in the cannon D&D world, and the fact that it can be seen as a point based / mana type of alternative casting system should be a help. but thus far it hasn't. personally i think the sorceror (while having roots in western myth and fable) is a cop-out on this. it's really a mix of a wizard and a psion. a psychic for all the supposidly highly charismatic / force of personality descriptive text, a psion for the apparently alternative casting form (more spontanious and less rigid) and a wizard in regards to which spells and so on. in my point of view i've seen socerors be little less than missile launchers, and that hardly shows any particularly high force of personality in my opinion. when i think of them all i think about is buckles galore.
before the psi can be put into the core rules, it needs to be a few things.
a) balanced: it needs to be played with as long as the rest of the classes, not just as an add-on. it has to be there from the start in order to be balanced. and because of that, it's not going to happen unless there is an overhaul to the mechanics of the game. i thought that 3rd edition would be it, but it wasn't
b) standardized: again, this comes only with time. everyone has accepted alot of sacred cows in D&D for a while now, like for instance the fact that there is REALLY no difference between an illusionist's main abilities and a plane jane wizard's main abilities. heck, shouldn't an illusionist get some special abilities, like at 5th level be able to create minor illusions 3 times/day with just the wave of his hand? or a transmuter be able to get some transmutation powers along the way, like the ability to change the physical properties of something w/o having to allocate a spell for it? or dare say have a necromancer be MORE than just a regular wizard who can cast one extra "fear" spell a day than a wizard of his same level? these are things we don't really question much, they are scared cows. the psion isn't at that stage yet where people just accept who he is. he is used differently in many campaigns, and rule zero'd so much that a psion from my campaign (not just backstory, but abilities) is not going to look much like one from anothers' game. while no two fighters are really the same, there is still a general way they are handled. they are standards in peoples games, psions aren't.
c) accepted: i never knew so many people thought psychic stuff was sci fi in flavour. psychic events (and all that paranormal stuff in general) has been here on this earth before people knew how to write. mind powers are detailed in almost all major faiths and civilizational histories on this planet. it's more of an eastern thing (i know for one my holy books even mention esp and astral projections), for sure, but i don't remember seeing any people in my story books about knights and ogres and orcs going around tumbling and using flury of blows either. i think part of the lack of respect it gets is because of how previous versions of psionics were handled in pervious versions of the game, and partly by the new age influence psionics have over this current version of the PsiHB. maybe if they took out the new age names (biofeedback, etc) and gave more colourful names things would be better. instead of remote viewing or some of the other names people have problems with, maybe they can have abilities / power named "travel without moving" (send a part of your being to some other part or plane for a limited time), or "expanded consciousness" (+1 temporal understanding to AC ?). if everyone hated rogues they wouldn't be in the PHB either . . . people have to be convinced that it belongs in the game.
it's not going to be balanced unless it is accepted. it's not going to be accepted unless it is standardized. it's not going to be standardized unless it is balanced.
and that's why it will forever remain only done "right" in our own homebrews, as whatever is put out is unacceptable to all of us for whatever reasons.
currently including it in a PHB would really water down psi so much, that it will not be enjoyed. while splat books go some distance to flesh out the classes (i know my fighter wasn't complete until i knew how much a halfling war waggon costed), having to rely on them isnt going to cut it. also i think psychic stuff and magic don't cross over, in my world they are very different things. (of course there are many who find no problem with using dispell magic on an enemy psion, so again, this class isn't standardized *or* balanced yet) if it's not going to be done right, it shouldn't be put in the book.
I do have some sort of suggestion though. a 4th core rules book, or a 1st option book. included in it are things which were developed along with the core rules, but merely add more choices. in it would be things on firearms, mass combat, psionics, alternative magic systems, (possibly some guidelines for creating your own class, and give a psion as an example?), eastern stuff, arabic stuff, indian stuff, meso-american stuff, african stuff and so forth. obviously not going to happen either.
esp when there is the oa book already out, and the psihb and so forth. but as long as these things are kept out, they will never fully be let in. (psions, samuri, etc....) and if i wanted to be snippy monks shouldn't be in if psions can't be in, as they are both redundant if you try hard enough to argue against them.
monk? why not just multiclass a rogue and a fighter who fights unarmed?
psion? why not just use another of the available casting classes, and only take spells like ESP and skills like Scry?
lot of points on this thread, and everyone has an opinion. startling is that it's pretty much split down the middle. didn't know there were so many closed minded people who wanted to limit what was in their fictional imagination based game . . . but jokes aside, i'm glad i checked the boards for this.
i am a psi fan (and not a sci fi fan at all), and i want to write alot on this subject, but am pressed for time right now, regardless of what i think, it's just not happening. psions and psiwar will not be in the next (3.5) edition, nor the 4th edition, maybe the 5th edition.
it's mainly for an economic reason, and it has reprocussions down the line for everything. i think psychics need some sort of legitimacy in the cannon D&D world, and the fact that it can be seen as a point based / mana type of alternative casting system should be a help. but thus far it hasn't. personally i think the sorceror (while having roots in western myth and fable) is a cop-out on this. it's really a mix of a wizard and a psion. a psychic for all the supposidly highly charismatic / force of personality descriptive text, a psion for the apparently alternative casting form (more spontanious and less rigid) and a wizard in regards to which spells and so on. in my point of view i've seen socerors be little less than missile launchers, and that hardly shows any particularly high force of personality in my opinion. when i think of them all i think about is buckles galore.
before the psi can be put into the core rules, it needs to be a few things.
a) balanced: it needs to be played with as long as the rest of the classes, not just as an add-on. it has to be there from the start in order to be balanced. and because of that, it's not going to happen unless there is an overhaul to the mechanics of the game. i thought that 3rd edition would be it, but it wasn't
b) standardized: again, this comes only with time. everyone has accepted alot of sacred cows in D&D for a while now, like for instance the fact that there is REALLY no difference between an illusionist's main abilities and a plane jane wizard's main abilities. heck, shouldn't an illusionist get some special abilities, like at 5th level be able to create minor illusions 3 times/day with just the wave of his hand? or a transmuter be able to get some transmutation powers along the way, like the ability to change the physical properties of something w/o having to allocate a spell for it? or dare say have a necromancer be MORE than just a regular wizard who can cast one extra "fear" spell a day than a wizard of his same level? these are things we don't really question much, they are scared cows. the psion isn't at that stage yet where people just accept who he is. he is used differently in many campaigns, and rule zero'd so much that a psion from my campaign (not just backstory, but abilities) is not going to look much like one from anothers' game. while no two fighters are really the same, there is still a general way they are handled. they are standards in peoples games, psions aren't.
c) accepted: i never knew so many people thought psychic stuff was sci fi in flavour. psychic events (and all that paranormal stuff in general) has been here on this earth before people knew how to write. mind powers are detailed in almost all major faiths and civilizational histories on this planet. it's more of an eastern thing (i know for one my holy books even mention esp and astral projections), for sure, but i don't remember seeing any people in my story books about knights and ogres and orcs going around tumbling and using flury of blows either. i think part of the lack of respect it gets is because of how previous versions of psionics were handled in pervious versions of the game, and partly by the new age influence psionics have over this current version of the PsiHB. maybe if they took out the new age names (biofeedback, etc) and gave more colourful names things would be better. instead of remote viewing or some of the other names people have problems with, maybe they can have abilities / power named "travel without moving" (send a part of your being to some other part or plane for a limited time), or "expanded consciousness" (+1 temporal understanding to AC ?). if everyone hated rogues they wouldn't be in the PHB either . . . people have to be convinced that it belongs in the game.
it's not going to be balanced unless it is accepted. it's not going to be accepted unless it is standardized. it's not going to be standardized unless it is balanced.
and that's why it will forever remain only done "right" in our own homebrews, as whatever is put out is unacceptable to all of us for whatever reasons.
currently including it in a PHB would really water down psi so much, that it will not be enjoyed. while splat books go some distance to flesh out the classes (i know my fighter wasn't complete until i knew how much a halfling war waggon costed), having to rely on them isnt going to cut it. also i think psychic stuff and magic don't cross over, in my world they are very different things. (of course there are many who find no problem with using dispell magic on an enemy psion, so again, this class isn't standardized *or* balanced yet) if it's not going to be done right, it shouldn't be put in the book.
I do have some sort of suggestion though. a 4th core rules book, or a 1st option book. included in it are things which were developed along with the core rules, but merely add more choices. in it would be things on firearms, mass combat, psionics, alternative magic systems, (possibly some guidelines for creating your own class, and give a psion as an example?), eastern stuff, arabic stuff, indian stuff, meso-american stuff, african stuff and so forth. obviously not going to happen either.
esp when there is the oa book already out, and the psihb and so forth. but as long as these things are kept out, they will never fully be let in. (psions, samuri, etc....) and if i wanted to be snippy monks shouldn't be in if psions can't be in, as they are both redundant if you try hard enough to argue against them.
monk? why not just multiclass a rogue and a fighter who fights unarmed?
psion? why not just use another of the available casting classes, and only take spells like ESP and skills like Scry?
Dark Psion
First Post
Psionics Unearthed
BTW, has everyone read Monte's Design Diary update for his "Arcana Unearthed" books?
Here's the link: http://www.montecook.com/diary.html
"This week, I thought I'd talk more about the new magic system in Arcana Unearthed.
Casting Spells
It's simple, really. Like I said last week, each class has access to either simple or both simple and complex spells. You have a set number of spells that you can "ready" on a given day, based on your level and an ability score. "Ready" simply means that you've got the spell all set to go when you need it. (You don't lose the readied status of a spell if you cast it. It's more like how a sorcerer knows certain spells, except that your chosen readied spells can change each day if you wish.) If you can ready four 1st-level spells per day, they can be four different 1st-level spells from day to day. No spellbooks involved. No memorization and forgetting*. And the numbers of spells you can ready isn't so small that it forces repetition (and you can change them every day).
You also have a set number of "slots" each day to cast your spells with. So, if you've got three 1st-level slots, you can cast any three of the four 1st-level spells you have prepared. In any combination. So you can cast one spell four times, four different spells, two spells twice, or whatever.
So far, it sounds like it's just a combination of the way sorcerers and wizards work, right? Well, that's intentional. I wanted to keep it both simple and not drastically different than what people are used to (and I wanted to keep the spells themselves pretty compatible with regular spells).
But I didn't stop there. The two really different aspects are:
1. Casters can "weave" multiple lower-level slots to cast higher-level spells, or a single higher-level slot to cast multiple lower-level spells. This adds a great deal of flexibility.
2. Spells have prescribed diminished and heightened effects in their descriptions to tell you what happens if you cast the spell using a slot one level lower or one level higher than the spell itself. This effectively makes every spell into three similar but different spells. For example, there's a spell that animates a melee weapon to go attack for you. It attacks as if you're wielding it. The diminished version suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and can take only partial actions. The heightened version allows you to use your spellcasting ability score modifier rather than your Strength to use to determine attack bonus and damage. I'm proud of this innovation, because it adds a great deal of flavor to each spell and allows casters a lot more choices. You don't have to take a feat to use these diminished or heightened versions. If you've got the spell readied, you've automatically got all three versions readied.
It's All in the Categorization
So all spells are categorized as simple, complex or exotic. I also took a concept that worked great in 3E and expounded upon it -- the idea of spell descriptors. You know, the bit after the school that tells you it's a [fire] spell. That's great, because it lumps spells together in meaningful ways. You can say, "He adds +2 to the DC of all fire spells he casts," and the statement has clear meaning.
So I've added more to that. For example, I've discovered that most players were surprised to learn that there was a [fire] descriptor and a [cold] descriptor but not an [air] descriptor or one for earth or water. So I've added them, and made it really mean something for a spell to be an air spell. So if your character concept is that you want to be a wind mage, it's easy to pick your spells appropriately. You can even take a special feat that will make your [air] spells all have some new and funky qualities, thus giving you good incentive to be a wind mage. Or a fire mage. And so on.
One of the new descriptors is [psionic]. Now, for those of you who are hard-core psionic separatists (championing the cause that psionics are completely different than magic) this might be an innovation you don't like. But for those who want to see psionics integrated into the core of the game system, I think you'll be happy. Psionic "spells" affect minds, telekinetically move objects, and do all the other things you expect from psionics. Psionic mages, however, can use them with purely mental actions-no somatic or verbal components (you pay a feat to be a psionic mage). The mind witch class (a subtype of the witch class, which I'll explain more about in a future diary entry) gets the psionic mage feat for free at mid levels and has access to all spells with psionic descriptor, whether they are simple or complex. That's pretty close to a psionic-flavored class right there in the core of the system. You'll really have to see the mind witch write-up and the psionic "spells" to know what I mean, but I think I've given you an idea of where I'm going. (I even put the word "spells" in quotes when it comes to psionic "spells" in this diary entry, because the actual text of the book provides for simply calling them powers, to help keep the flavor of the two separate.)"
---------------
It looks like we will be seeing a psionics system incorporated into D&D rules, just not from WoC.
BTW, has everyone read Monte's Design Diary update for his "Arcana Unearthed" books?
Here's the link: http://www.montecook.com/diary.html
"This week, I thought I'd talk more about the new magic system in Arcana Unearthed.
Casting Spells
It's simple, really. Like I said last week, each class has access to either simple or both simple and complex spells. You have a set number of spells that you can "ready" on a given day, based on your level and an ability score. "Ready" simply means that you've got the spell all set to go when you need it. (You don't lose the readied status of a spell if you cast it. It's more like how a sorcerer knows certain spells, except that your chosen readied spells can change each day if you wish.) If you can ready four 1st-level spells per day, they can be four different 1st-level spells from day to day. No spellbooks involved. No memorization and forgetting*. And the numbers of spells you can ready isn't so small that it forces repetition (and you can change them every day).
You also have a set number of "slots" each day to cast your spells with. So, if you've got three 1st-level slots, you can cast any three of the four 1st-level spells you have prepared. In any combination. So you can cast one spell four times, four different spells, two spells twice, or whatever.
So far, it sounds like it's just a combination of the way sorcerers and wizards work, right? Well, that's intentional. I wanted to keep it both simple and not drastically different than what people are used to (and I wanted to keep the spells themselves pretty compatible with regular spells).
But I didn't stop there. The two really different aspects are:
1. Casters can "weave" multiple lower-level slots to cast higher-level spells, or a single higher-level slot to cast multiple lower-level spells. This adds a great deal of flexibility.
2. Spells have prescribed diminished and heightened effects in their descriptions to tell you what happens if you cast the spell using a slot one level lower or one level higher than the spell itself. This effectively makes every spell into three similar but different spells. For example, there's a spell that animates a melee weapon to go attack for you. It attacks as if you're wielding it. The diminished version suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and can take only partial actions. The heightened version allows you to use your spellcasting ability score modifier rather than your Strength to use to determine attack bonus and damage. I'm proud of this innovation, because it adds a great deal of flavor to each spell and allows casters a lot more choices. You don't have to take a feat to use these diminished or heightened versions. If you've got the spell readied, you've automatically got all three versions readied.
It's All in the Categorization
So all spells are categorized as simple, complex or exotic. I also took a concept that worked great in 3E and expounded upon it -- the idea of spell descriptors. You know, the bit after the school that tells you it's a [fire] spell. That's great, because it lumps spells together in meaningful ways. You can say, "He adds +2 to the DC of all fire spells he casts," and the statement has clear meaning.
So I've added more to that. For example, I've discovered that most players were surprised to learn that there was a [fire] descriptor and a [cold] descriptor but not an [air] descriptor or one for earth or water. So I've added them, and made it really mean something for a spell to be an air spell. So if your character concept is that you want to be a wind mage, it's easy to pick your spells appropriately. You can even take a special feat that will make your [air] spells all have some new and funky qualities, thus giving you good incentive to be a wind mage. Or a fire mage. And so on.
One of the new descriptors is [psionic]. Now, for those of you who are hard-core psionic separatists (championing the cause that psionics are completely different than magic) this might be an innovation you don't like. But for those who want to see psionics integrated into the core of the game system, I think you'll be happy. Psionic "spells" affect minds, telekinetically move objects, and do all the other things you expect from psionics. Psionic mages, however, can use them with purely mental actions-no somatic or verbal components (you pay a feat to be a psionic mage). The mind witch class (a subtype of the witch class, which I'll explain more about in a future diary entry) gets the psionic mage feat for free at mid levels and has access to all spells with psionic descriptor, whether they are simple or complex. That's pretty close to a psionic-flavored class right there in the core of the system. You'll really have to see the mind witch write-up and the psionic "spells" to know what I mean, but I think I've given you an idea of where I'm going. (I even put the word "spells" in quotes when it comes to psionic "spells" in this diary entry, because the actual text of the book provides for simply calling them powers, to help keep the flavor of the two separate.)"
---------------
It looks like we will be seeing a psionics system incorporated into D&D rules, just not from WoC.
From what I got reading it, Mont's version of psionics will be basicaly a Sor. class that specilizes in "psionic" spells. I have to admit that I like the ability to use lower spell slots to cast higher spells (and never understood why DnD didn't take that step with 3e), but it seems to be something that all spell casters can do.
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