D&D 5E Wound Levels instead of Death Saves house rule

[DND_Reborn]

Thats what they are in the core rules.

Hit points are expressly luck, the will to live, fighting/ parrying/ dodging skill (why fighters and martials get more) experience (you get more as you advance in level) and health.

Yeah, it is pretty close. We removed some of the health aspect (see post on Wound Points above).

 

[5ekyu]

While I completely understand your drive for something like this, to me this is too complex. We have some simpler house-rules, but are even thinking for removing those.

So, my question to you would be this: how can you simplify this and stream-line it?

Some points I will make...

Dropping to zero vs staying up is usually not anything close to something the player controls. Most characters cannot heal themselves enough to offset incoming dsmage and do its either the effort of multiple PCs needed or somehow avoiding critical hits which are pretty random.

So this seems to be punishing the PCs for stuff they dont conttol.

IMO the single biggest changes a GM can make to reduce zero-n-back-up would be to remove NPC crits from the game and use the success at cost rule that allows PCs to take a setback to make a narrowly missed save. I think those open up a lot of options and put the flow of combat a lot more in the arena of choice than adding more severe penalties for unlucky breaks.

One level of exhaustion is definitely going to lead to many more cases of Retreat. Its disadvantage on initiatives, its disadvantage on perception, on escapes from grapples etc - it's very risky to proceed with such.

Maybe try something simple first, like "going to zero hp costs you an unspent HD and do foes each failed death save."

 

[Shiroiken]

A similar, but simpler wound system I worked out a while back might be better for you. It basically turns HP into stamina and adds a Wounds system on top of it. Wounds don't have a penalty attached to them like exhaustion does, because that creates the death spiral, but they do make combat more lethal, even at higher levels. If using this, I'd recommend fully restoring HD after a Long Rest, rather than only half.

Creatures have a wound threshold based on their size category (feel free to modify the amounts, I never actually got a chance to playtest this). If your wounds ever meet this threshold, you die. When you reach 0 HP, or whenever you take damage while at 0 HP, you may choose to remain conscious and active or fall unconscious (Stabilized). If hit with a subdue attack that would put you at 0 HP, after taking any wounds you must make a Con save DC: half damage (minimum 10) or fall unconscious (Stabilized). While at 0 HP and active, you must make a Death Saving Throw at the end of your Turn, but if you took no action other than Dash or Withdraw, you do not gain any wounds by failing this save (you may still gain 1 HP if you roll a 20).

Wound Thresholds
Tiny: 3 wounds
Small: 4 Wounds
Medium: 5 Wounds
Large: 6 Wounds
Huge: 8 Wounds
Gigantic: 10 Wounds

Gaining Wounds
Being Critically Hit (not cumulative with % of Max HP wounds)
Taking damage from a single source more than 25% your Max HP
Taking damage from a single source more than 50% your Max HP
Taking damage from a single source more than 75% your Max HP
Taking damage from a single source more than 100% your Max HP
Taking damage while at 0 HP
Failing a Death Save
Rolling a 1 on a Death Save

Removing Wounds
Healing HP from a single source equal to 25% of your Max HP
Healing HP from a single source equal to 50% of your Max HP
Healing HP from a single source equal to 75% of your Max HP
Healing HP from a single source equal to 100% of your Max HP
Lesser Restoration option
Greater Restoration option removes 1d4+1 wounds

 

[DND_Reborn]

Some points I will make...

Dropping to zero vs staying up is usually not anything close to something the player controls. Most characters cannot heal themselves enough to offset incoming dsmage and do its either the effort of multiple PCs needed or somehow avoiding critical hits which are pretty random.

So this seems to be punishing the PCs for stuff they dont conttol.

IMO the single biggest changes a GM can make to reduce zero-n-back-up would be to remove NPC crits from the game and use the success at cost rule that allows PCs to take a setback to make a narrowly missed save. I think those open up a lot of options and put the flow of combat a lot more in the arena of choice than adding more severe penalties for unlucky breaks.

One level of exhaustion is definitely going to lead to many more cases of Retreat. Its disadvantage on initiatives, its disadvantage on perception, on escapes from grapples etc - it's very risky to proceed with such.

Maybe try something simple first, like "going to zero hp costs you an unspent HD and do foes each failed death save."

Ok, so I have no idea why you quoted me for your post, and frankly don't follow some of it or the point you are trying to make. Also, yeah, I know you love the "success at a cost rule", but I really don't. The control the players have is in developing their character, not (often) once the dice start rolling.

 

[Campbell]

I would consider lifting Pathfinder 2's Death and Dying rules if you want to make going down more than once more dangerous.

• When you first go down you gain Dying 1 if it was a normal hit or Dying 2 if it was a critical hit.
• Every round on your turn you make a flat check (Straight d20) against 10 + Dying value. If you succeed reduce Dying by 1. If you fail increase Dying by 1. If Dying reaches 4 you die. If it reaches 0 you stabilize and gain Wounded 1 if you are not already wounded or increase your wounded condition if you are wounded, but are still Unconscious.
• Healing brings you back up and you lose the Dying Condition, but increase your Wounded value by 1.
• Any time you go down to 0 hit points while wounded increase your Dying value by your Wounded condition. So if you are Wounded 1 and go down to a Critical Hit you would start at Dying 3.
• Removing the Wounded condition requires a successful Medicine roll that takes 10 minutes.
  
  
  What this does is make the first time you go down in combat not a very big deal, but makes going down multiple times very dangerous. It also makes the recovery check more tenuous over time.

 

[Blue]

Just to get it out of the way, I think some characters put themselves at the a higher risk of dropping to zero for the good of the party. Picture a front line fighter vs. an archer fighter. So I think any rule that penalizes characters for helping protect the party is a disincentive to how I want to play. But that's my table, and yours in enjoying it so let me try to be directly helpful.

First, I like your expanded Exhaustion table. One issue I've had about exhaustion being handed out as a combat-based penalty is that the first thing it does is give you disadvantage on ability checks - with is the vast majority of mechanical interaction in other pillars of play. So because of combat you've become bad at everything that isn't combat. Personally, I'd recommend breaking up that when you get it (2nd level of exhaustion) even more - perhaps that gives disadvatnage on STR, DEX and CON ability checks, and a later one for INT, WIS and CHR ability checks.

I notice that you can get rid of wounds by spending HD during a short rest, but during a long rest wounds become exhaustion. This might end up with players wanting mechanically to have a short rest (to spend HD to clear wounds) right before a long rest. Perhaps during a long rest a character MUST spend remaining HD to cure wounds first, and then they become exhaustion. This both cures the problem, but since HD only half refresh it may create other issues that last into the next day.

 

[Garthanos]

Expanded Exhaustion Table:

1 Disadvantage on Initiative
2 Disadvantage on Ability Checks
3 Speed halved
4 No Reactions or Bonus Actions (or bonus action in lew of action)
5 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and Saving Throws
6 Attacks against you have advantage
7 Hit point maximum halved
8 Can move or act but not both
9 Speed reduced to 5 and cannot stand, cannot cast spells
10 Death

With this, PCs start making wound saves earlier and use up HD faster to stave off the effects of being wounded.

In 4e they had a concept called Afflictions which were very much never expanded on. The above sort of reminds me about some of the possible. As well as tricks like accepting an affliction to gain some benefit a bit like running on their blade (your luck is not running out so much as you let it happen).

 

[Coroc]

The "wound" approach has a serious disadvantage for me. There are other RPG systems where a wound has consequences and is applied at a certain threshold of HP. With D&D some of my players who play this other system to asked me: What does this level of HP mean? Did the char get a wound?
My standard reply to that is, that D&D does not handle it that way, but they are totally free to play out their injuries - or just heavy fatigue from combat - as drastic as they like but it does not have mechanical consequences unless you hit 0.
The same approach goes for the stand-up-in-combat guy who was on dead saves but gets tossed a heal.
Simply play that out as someone passing out for some seconds due to a heavy blow, then it adds to make believe of the scenario.
It is something I really like with D&D because not everybody is the same level when it comes to blood and gore and I do not want to enforce a standard level on my players, while for some it might add to the fun and "realism", for others it does not.

 

[Uller]

I notice that you can get rid of wounds by spending HD during a short rest, but during a long rest wounds become exhaustion. This might end up with players wanting mechanically to have a short rest (to spend HD to clear wounds) right before a long rest.

Yes. I assume at the start of a long rest the PCs gain the benefits of a short rest...so they can spend unused HD, cast ritual spells, us unused spell slots (good berry being the most popular in our game), etc. But I only allow three short rests per long rest...so no spamming Second Wind or other similar short rest poweres.

 

[Uller]

Thanks for the replies all. There is some good stuff here. As of last night we have not changed from our current implementation of this rule (failed death saves equal 1 level of exhaustion).

Two PCs out of 4 went down amd gained 1 level of exhaustion but the party pressed on. After another big fight, a new PC joined the group (a rescued prisoner...on of my players returned after a 4 month absence) and he was dropped to 0 hp in the last fight of the evening. They decided then to seek out a long rest. By this point the party had expended almost all other resources anyway and no new time pressures came up. So I still stand by that my group does not exhibit the 5MWD problem vey much.

However I do agree with the potential death spiral problem. I think before we make any changes I just have to ask them how they feel about playing characters that are temporarily degraded by wounds or who have to expend HD to avoid that. I only introduce house rules if they are more fun for my players...right now I think the whole whackamole thing bothers them the most...so the simplest way to let them avoid it by taking a risk or expending a resource is what I am interested in...the pathfinder approach might carry the day..