Wow, my Wimpzard can finally use a Sword !!!

[CapnZapp]

I haven't read the Feat yet, this question should be posed to the Rules Lawyers at WotC.

But as far as I can interpret from what was written here, what ever gave a Wizard (with the feat) the ability to use its Intelligence for a martial attack in the first place?

It is the power you use that determines which attribute you use.

So it isn't that I'm arguing the Wizard gets to use Int with martial attack (weapon powers); I'm arguing the feat allows the wizard to use a sword as an implement - with his arcane attack (implement powers). And these use Int (or, at the very least, they don't use Str).

Getting to use a sword as an implement means getting to use it as the conduit for your arcane spells. Remember how you only get the sword's proficiency bonus when you use it as a weapon (with martial exploits).

Cheers!

 

[CapnZapp]

It's pretty clearly not a mistake.

It's implemented in the Character Builder <snip>

Sorry but I do not view the Character Builder as an official source. It's just a tool expressing the rules as written in the books.

What you are saying could mean as little as the programmer just doing a good job of implementing his specifications, i.e. what is in the books.

Not saying you're wrong; only that bringing up the CB does not make the case "pretty clearly" either way

 

[Hereticus]

So it isn't that I'm arguing the Wizard gets to use Int with martial attack (weapon powers); I'm arguing the feat allows the wizard to use a sword as an implement - with his arcane attack (implement powers). And these use Int (or, at the very least, they don't use Str).

Cheers!

Yes, that is the point.

Now two issues come to mind:

Using a sword as a martial weapon as a feat means I use my Strength for attack bonus and damage. Most Wizards will lose at least +5 or more.

Gold is scarce. My best item is a Wand of Power +3, not a Sword +2.

 

[DracoSuave]

Now two issues come to mind:

Using a sword as a martial weapon as a feat means I use my Strength for attack bonus and damage. Most Wizards will lose at least +5 or more.

Gold is scarce. My best item is a Wand of Power +3, not a Sword +2

Level 1) Eladrin Sword Wizardry.
Level 2) Melee Training
Level 4) Eladrin Soldier (until epic)

Take all Fire powers, and a Frost Long Sword.

Level 6) Arcane Fire (It's like Lasting Frost0!
Level 8) Wintertouched

I don't need to go on, do I?

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes, that is the point.

Now two issues come to mind:

Using a sword as a martial weapon as a feat means I use my Strength for attack bonus and damage. Most Wizards will lose at least +5 or more.

Gold is scarce. My best item is a Wand of Power +3, not a Sword +2.

Sorry, I don't follow. What is your complaint?

The feat isn't designed to make your wizard a swordsman.

The feat is designed to make your wizard wave around a sword instead of waving around a wand, or an orb, or a tome. Remember, the sword is used as an implement, not a weapon.

Your wizard doesn't lose anything. In fact, being able to continue using Int for your powers (through the sword-as-implement) is supposed to be a great boon! It is if you had to use Str for your powers (which all are arcane Int-based powers) you would lose out.

And with this feat you can afford a Sword +3 because you no longer need that Wand, so you don't lose out on gear either.


Zapp

PS. If you want a feat that allows your Eladrin Wizard to use a Sword-as-weapon with Int instead of Str, you will need to say so more clearly... Anyway, that is a completely different concept which would require a completely different feat that has nothing to do with this one.

 

[Hereticus]

I don't need to go on, do I?

To answer this first... I was not building for optimization, I was building to create an interesting character that I liked.

One thing that has been a big turn-off for me in 4.0 is the emphasis on optimization... and the drive for balance that it forced by the game designers.

Level 1) Eladrin Sword Wizardry.
Level 2) Melee Training
Level 4) Eladrin Soldier (until epic)

Take all Fire powers, and a Frost Long Sword.

Level 6) Arcane Fire (It's like Lasting Frost0!
Level 8) Wintertouched

These are the feats I chose:
1) Improved Initiative - My survival may depend upon me acting first.
2) Skill Training: Insight (I already had Perception) - All around important to have.
4 & 6) Astral Fire / Burning Blizzard - I only had Force, Fire and Cold damage spells. My character's name is Raguel, there is a biblical reference that helped me structure him.
8) Skill Training: Bluff - The use of the Disguise (Utility 06) spell was something that paid big dividends later on when we took out an underground Drow base just recently.
10) Skill Focus: Arcana - I have 24 ranks... I kick ass with this skill. Raguel is an arrogant prick, and he gloats about his mastery of this skill.
11) Spell Focus - This makes my spells easier to hit.
12) Arcane Reach - When one of my enemies looks like he's attacked another of my enemies, all I have to do is sit by and watch.

This may not be the best build for optimization, but it fits my role playing style and my character's personality.

 

[Hereticus]

Sorry, I don't follow. What is your complaint?

The feat isn't designed to make your wizard a swordsman.

Perhaps this thread has outlived its usefulness.

This was not a complaint, just a comment.

Your wizard doesn't lose anything. In fact, being able to continue using Int for your powers (through the sword-as-implement) is supposed to be a great boon! It is if you had to use Str for your powers (which all are arcane Int-based powers) you would lose out.

And with this feat you can afford a Sword +3 because you no longer need that Wand, so you don't lose out on gear either.

Bad choice for my character.

I prefer my Wand, it has Power+3. I prefer the extra encounter spell to a weapon.

My character was purposely designed with a low strength. I role play that into my character. I really never wanted to use a sword. Have you read the introduction post in this thread, the part in orange?

PS. If you want a feat that allows your Eladrin Wizard to use a Sword-as-weapon with Int instead of Str, you will need to say so more clearly... Anyway, that is a completely different concept which would require a completely different feat that has nothing to do with this one.

No, that has never been what I wanted.

I asked a few questions because I wanted an interpretation of the rules, because some elements were unclear to me.

 

[Hereticus]

Despite my 06 strength, as an eladrin I felt that I had to carry a longsword. After all, it was in my blood. I never cared to own one, but as I left home for the first time to make my fortune as an adventurer, I needed to have one because for an eladrin not to have one would have brought disgrace to myself, my clan, my city, my race, and to Corellon himself.

I found an old discarded sword in a junk heap, the blade was broken, chipped and rusted, and its hilt was missing. No problem, after casting the Make Whole ritual it was almost as good as new, except for the rust covering it, the dull blade, and lack of a sheath. So I proudly left town with the hilt of the sword tied to my belt, and the point dragging along the ground behind me.

In this part of my introduction, I state mockingly how I knew by design that I as a player I had no interest in using Raguel as a combat Wizard. But that I would have a sword and pretend to be able to use it... because I was Eladrin.

I was damned good at what I did, and that was to cast spells, hide, run away, cast more spells, and tell others what to do. I never had to use my sword in hostility until well into my career as a well known hero. A bugbear broke through the lines of the grunts who were suppose to shield me. I had severely weakened it with spells, so I decided to finish it off with my sword. My first ever swing in hostility was not my best, as evidenced by my roll of 01 on a d20. Fortunately I was able to interrupt its attack with a Shield spell, and it was killed by arrows from my friend the ranger. That was both a terrifying and an embarrassing situation. I never attempted to swing that sword again.

This captures the first half of my career as an adventurer. I was a spell casting Wizard first, foremost and only... who ran (or Fey Stepped) from combat, because I was terrible at it.

As a group the others came to realize that my spells helped them kill things, like softening up enemies from a distance, doing extra damage the creatures they were in combat with, immobilizing targets with Icy Rays before they were hacked apart, and slowing enemies so they were easier to kill.

My first positive experience with a blade of any type came when I was able to cast a spell first written by that epic eladrin known to the human world as Mordenkainen. I was able to create a sword by spell and wield it at a distance with my mind. Many successes convinced me to choose the paragon path of the spiral tower. I had acquired a much better sword from a drow who no longer needed it, and I enchanted it up from +1 to +2. I looked good posing with the blade and in taking practice swings at trees and bushes, but I still had to prove it in real combat.

I could not have picked a better time to role an 01... it was perfect!

Now that we were in the upper end of the Hero tier, some of our personalities and tendencies were changing from what they were early on. I was still emphasizing the original design of my character.

Finally my chance came, my group was ambushed by a band of gnolls. Instead of Fey Stepping away and bombarding them with spells from safety, I whipped out my newly improved drow sword. While still sitting on my Floating Disk I was able to take great swings and kill two of them. The fact that the second was held by an Icy Hand made hitting him that much easier.

This emphasizes that I still have no interest in using a sword as a martial weapon, but as a spell power (intelligence based). I still prefer to attack by spell and run away, but at least now when I go into combat I am not doing 1d8-2 points of damage.

That is the story in a nutshell of my character’s sword use so far. The mechanics of standard combat with a sword is easy, but I want to make sure that we are using the Mordenkainen’s Sword power and The One Sword power correctly. These rules are new to all of us and, these were first time uses of higher level powers. We made our best guess rulings, how close (or how far off) were we?

The purpose of this thread was to confirm our group's interpretation of the rules.

I thank all who helped out.

 

[Siran Dunmorgan]

Sorry but I do not view the Character Builder as an official source. It's just a tool expressing the rules as written in the books.

What you are saying could mean as little as the programmer just doing a good job of implementing his specifications, i.e. what is in the books.

Not saying you're wrong; only that bringing up the CB does not make the case "pretty clearly" either way

I completely agree that "it's just a tool expressing the rules as written in the books."

My point is exactly that: it is expressing the rules as written in the books [1], and, by doing so, clarifying the effect of the feat.

In this role, the Character Builder is not significantly different from—for example—an interview with the designers of the game. [2]

—Siran Dunmorgan


[1] Not only the books, by the way: it is also a tool expressing the rules as written in the magazines, the adventures, and the miniatures packs.

[2] Given a more-or-less normal software development methodology, the Character Builder probably is the result of software developers' interviews with the designers.

 

[Spatula]

The question I asked was "How long does the encounter power known as "The One Sword" last, assuming that I continue hitting?

Do I continue to get primary attacks for the duration of the encounter?

Do I continue to get secondary attacks for the duration of the encounter, or just on my first turn?

I have no questions about what the effects are or what they do, just how long I can continue to use those attacks.

Ah. Hitting with the secondary attack recharges the One Sword attack. You can keep using it as long the secondary attack keeps hitting (which requires that the primary attack keeps hitting as well, of course).

round 1: attack with the One Sword, hit. make secondary attack, hit.
the encounter power would be expended but is recharged because the secondary attack hit.

round 2: attack with the One Sword, miss. the encounter power is expended.

alternate round 2 #1: attack with the One Sword, hit. make secondary attack, miss. the encounter power is expended.

alternate round 2 #2: attack with the One Sword, hit. make secondary attack, hit. the encounter power would be expended but is recharged.