JacktheRabbit
Explorer
If that is the case then its hard to aruge that you get no save because you are grappling with a steel monster. That is real world talking not magic.
Horacio said:
Wulf's Collected Story Hour -- FINAL UPDATE 12/25
- Thread starter Wulf Ratbane
- Start date
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Dinkeldog said:
True, but unless the person is totally pinned and helpless, I think the person grappled should be able to fend off some attacks. BTW the definition of helpless indicates Dex treated as 0, but no mention of forfeiting saving throws. I personally wouldn't deny someone a saving throw unless the rules specifically dictate that they should not get one. There is no condition in the SRD Condition Summary that involves a character forfeiting a saving throw they would ordinarily get.
Squire James
Explorer
When electricity hits a grounded metal object (which, unless Wulf was holding a SP entirely off the ground, was the case), it goes through the object and "grounds out". True, a good bit of it goes into Wulf (ie: deny Evasion, he took damage). However, there's a decent chance NOT ALL of it went into Wulf, and a Reflex save is the best measure of such luck I can think of. The desires of the conductor have nothing to do with it.
Now, if those Steel Predators has insulating booties on their feet, I can see it happening the way Dinkeldog explained it. That is, if the SP's weren't touching the ground with anything but their feet. The electricity would then ground out entirely through Wulf, and thus he takes it all. They'd have to be declawed, though, because otherwise the rubber booties get shredded real quickly!
Of course, the Lightning Bolt spell doesn't seem to work like real-world lightning (ie: it progresses past/through metal objects to the limit of its range). In this case, I assert the SP's don't conduct it (otherwise it WOULD stop), and the issue is whether Wulf wiggled out of its way somehow. In my game, this would be a Reflex save, with Evasion enabled, and the target loses his Dex bonus to the save due to being grappled.
Now, if those Steel Predators has insulating booties on their feet, I can see it happening the way Dinkeldog explained it. That is, if the SP's weren't touching the ground with anything but their feet. The electricity would then ground out entirely through Wulf, and thus he takes it all. They'd have to be declawed, though, because otherwise the rubber booties get shredded real quickly!
Of course, the Lightning Bolt spell doesn't seem to work like real-world lightning (ie: it progresses past/through metal objects to the limit of its range). In this case, I assert the SP's don't conduct it (otherwise it WOULD stop), and the issue is whether Wulf wiggled out of its way somehow. In my game, this would be a Reflex save, with Evasion enabled, and the target loses his Dex bonus to the save due to being grappled.
Hey Nemmerle!!
[Shameless Plug]
I don't know how easily printable it is (a simple cut & paste should work), but you can read the entire story so far without all the chatter at our website. All there with Wulf's kind permission, of course.
Actually, it's missing the last update, I think, but that's only a matter of time.
Just go to www.rat-bastards.com, click on our logo to get in and Wulf's link is top center on our menu bar.
[/Shameless Plug]
nemmerle said:
[Shameless Plug]
I don't know how easily printable it is (a simple cut & paste should work), but you can read the entire story so far without all the chatter at our website. All there with Wulf's kind permission, of course.
Actually, it's missing the last update, I think, but that's only a matter of time.
Just go to www.rat-bastards.com, click on our logo to get in and Wulf's link is top center on our menu bar.
[/Shameless Plug]
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Kid Charlemagne said:
That's pretty much my view. I don't believe in reinventing the rules of a fantasy game because they don't adequately reflect "realism."
Play the rules as written.
Wulf
Nail
First Post
It's a mistake to use "how it really works" subjectively in RPGs.
In the "Wulf-grappled-by-a-SP" example, "how lightning really works" directly conflicts with "Wulf gets no save, 'cause he's pinned".
Wanna example? If you are in your car, and effectively "pinned" (but not "helpless") by your seat beat, you do get a "save" versus a lightning bolt hitting the car and damaging you. That is: sometimes people do get hurt, sometimes they don't. Even given all of the metal in a car conducting all of that electricity, or conversely, even with all of that insulating material between you and the lightning bolt. Some people die, some people get thru without so much as a singed hair. Go figure.
In th' Wulf example, you can't apply "reality" to only part of what happens: "Wulf gets no save 'cause he's pinned" and then neglect the other part: "Metalic objects may not necessarily conduct electricity into a pinned Wulf". (Pinned does not equal helpless.)
An' let's be honest: Most of us are not experts on whatever part of "But It Really Works That Way!" we're arguing about.
DMs: Stick wit' th' rules. Jus' suck it up. Players have t'do it all th' time.
In the "Wulf-grappled-by-a-SP" example, "how lightning really works" directly conflicts with "Wulf gets no save, 'cause he's pinned".
Wanna example? If you are in your car, and effectively "pinned" (but not "helpless") by your seat beat, you do get a "save" versus a lightning bolt hitting the car and damaging you. That is: sometimes people do get hurt, sometimes they don't. Even given all of the metal in a car conducting all of that electricity, or conversely, even with all of that insulating material between you and the lightning bolt. Some people die, some people get thru without so much as a singed hair. Go figure.
In th' Wulf example, you can't apply "reality" to only part of what happens: "Wulf gets no save 'cause he's pinned" and then neglect the other part: "Metalic objects may not necessarily conduct electricity into a pinned Wulf". (Pinned does not equal helpless.)
An' let's be honest: Most of us are not experts on whatever part of "But It Really Works That Way!" we're arguing about.
DMs: Stick wit' th' rules. Jus' suck it up. Players have t'do it all th' time.
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