Xander Harris Precedents

[Villano]

Madame Fatal is not a bad precedent, actually, although I'd love to know if she was doing this in conjunction with other heroes running around, which would make the connection closer.

Yes, she, er, he was published by Quality Comics in the 40's. You would probably recognize their characters because DC later bought them: Uncle Sam, Quicksilver (aka, Max Mercury), Black Condor, Plastic Man, etc.. I'm not sure if Fatale ever teamed-up with any of them, but they did exist in the same universe.

Madame Fatal didn't turn up in any DC books aside from a mention in JSA #1 that she/he was dead.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

So that whole Trojan Horse thing he thought up, that wasn't very important then?

He get's his own recruitment story in the Iliad. He does a lot of stuff in the Iliad and a fair share of fighting. He stole one of the artifacts from Troy that prevented the city from falling. Put his ass on the line hiding in the Trojan Horse.

Obviously he was no Achilles or Hercules, but calling him just an aristocrat, is simply not accurate. He was no ordinary guy. Pretty much by definition, ordinary guys don't become Greek heroes.

Granted he came up with ideas, but the main story and the real focus is Achilles. Like other sidekicks they can do some things and come up with good ideas. For the recruiting, Odysseus did not want to go and almost successfully managed to convince everyone he was mad so he wouldn't have to go. Part of the point in recruiting Odysseus as well was so that he would help recruit Achilles who was the main character of the story. Odysseus did do some of the fighting, but it is Achilles, Ajax, Diomedes and others that get the most of the battle write-ups.

As he relates to Xander and Sam I think he is close and deserves consideration if for nothing else being at the foundation of all future storytelling. Both Xander and Sam also come up with good ideas and fight alongside others. Neither of them are ordinary and by the end of their stories both are heroes as well. Pretty much by definition ordinary guys don't become heroes. Saying someone is a hero after the fact doesn't take away from where they started and what they had to deal with. Odysseus was surrounded by demi-gods and truly superior companions when he started. Maybe compared to the average Greek citizen he was better but compared to who he was fighting with he was ordinary. Achilles, Ajax, and Hector these were PC Fighter classed characters, in comparison Odysseus was an NPC class character. By the Odyssey, Odysseus was a high level NPC class traveling with a band of low to mid level Warriors and Experts.

 

[Felon]

So that whole Trojan Horse thing he thought up, that wasn't very important then?

He get's his own recruitment story in the Iliad. He does a lot of stuff in the Iliad and a fair share of fighting. He stole one of the artifacts from Troy that prevented the city from falling. Put his ass on the line hiding in the Trojan Horse.

Obviously he was no Achilles or Hercules, but calling him just an aristocrat, is simply not accurate. He was no ordinary guy. Pretty much by definition, ordinary guys don't become Greek heroes.

Well, Xander's offered up many outside-the-box ideas (no Trojan Horse pun intended) over the years.

He's had his own solo episode where he stopped the high school from being blown up by zombies.

He put his ass on the line when fighting Glory and when Willow was going to destroy the world and when the ubervamps were coming out of the Hellmouth.

Seems like a valid comparison based on your examples. He's no Buffy or Willow, but he's contributed over the years.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Saying someone is a hero after the fact doesn't take away from where they started and what they had to deal with. Odysseus was surrounded by demi-gods and truly superior companions when he started. Maybe compared to the average Greek citizen he was better but compared to who he was fighting with he was ordinary. Achilles, Ajax, and Hector these were PC Fighter classed characters, in comparison Odysseus was an NPC class character. By the Odyssey, Odysseus was a high level NPC class traveling with a band of low to mid level Warriors and Experts.

...I really don't see how an NPC gets an entire epic poem about him. Which is, by the way, the only surviving hellenic epic poem that features one primary character (the Menelaid being lost).

Nor do I see why one of the guys, who the rest of the heroic Achaeans consider to be equal to them, would somehow be an NPC class when the rest of them are PC classes.

Nor can I understand how Achilles, Agamemnon, Menelaus, and the Ajaxes can sack cities and be considered to have PC classes, whereas Odysseus, who ALSO sacked cities, is apparently just an NPC class.

Just because he thinks before he jumps doesn't mean he's an aristocrat or an expert. I'd put him as more of a rogue or bard, myself.

Brad

 

[Brown Jenkin]

...I really don't see how an NPC gets an entire epic poem about him. Which is, by the way, the only surviving hellenic epic poem that features one primary character (the Menelaid being lost).

For modern comparison this would be a spin-off. The main character for a spin-off doesn't have to be a primary character from the original series. For Example All in the Family spun off The Jeffersons, both of which were very successful, but if you look at All in the Family you would not consider George Jefferson a primary character even though he eventually became one. As for argueing that it is a epic poem, so it is, but that just means it turned out successful not that the main character didn't start out with humbler roots.

Nor do I see why one of the guys, who the rest of the heroic Achaeans consider to be equal to them, would somehow be an NPC class when the rest of them are PC classes.

For the point of this thread you have to compare to Xander again. Xander is in the show with Buffy, Willow, Angel, Spike, and Anya all of whom out power him in the slaying category but who also consider him their equal.

Nor can I understand how Achilles, Agamemnon, Menelaus, and the Ajaxes can sack cities and be considered to have PC classes, whereas Odysseus, who ALSO sacked cities, is apparently just an NPC class.

Xander also had his moments and saved the day, but the OP considers him the comparison point for this thread.

Just because he thinks before he jumps doesn't mean he's an aristocrat or an expert. I'd put him as more of a rogue or bard, myself.

Brad

Wouldn't Xander also be a Rogue or Bard then instead of a Commoner?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I never read the manga but did see the movie (both the 80s version then the retranslation from a few years ago), but could Kaneda in Akira be an example?

 

[GreenLantern]

How's about Rick Jones?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Jones_(comics)

 

[Felon]

...I really don't see how an NPC gets an entire epic poem about him. Which is, by the way, the only surviving hellenic epic poem that features one primary character (the Menelaid being lost).

Nor do I see why one of the guys, who the rest of the heroic Achaeans consider to be equal to them, would somehow be an NPC class when the rest of them are PC classes.

Nor can I understand how Achilles, Agamemnon, Menelaus, and the Ajaxes can sack cities and be considered to have PC classes, whereas Odysseus, who ALSO sacked cities, is apparently just an NPC class.

Just because he thinks before he jumps doesn't mean he's an aristocrat or an expert. I'd put him as more of a rogue or bard, myself.

Brad

You appear to be working under the premise that representing a character with an NPC class is tatamount to a demotion or dismissal of worth. In actuality, it's just that PC classes are all designed to be heavily-oriented towards combat, so designing a character that excels at overcoming problems with guile and resourcefulness instead of DPS often leads people to look at the expert or aristocrat.

As denotations of character significance, the terms "PC" or "NPC" cannot be applied to literary characters with validity. A character can be a main character in a vignette while falling into the role of supporting character in the story as a whole. This happens to both Xander and Odysseus throughout the course of their respective canons. Indeed, it's already been pointed out a couple of times that every example you've provided to demonstrate Odysseus's significance has a parallel with Xander.

In trying to represent literary characters with a D&D class, it's going to be a ham-fisted affair at best since D&D long ago de-prioritized the importance of making classes suitably broad in scop that literary figures can be easily transalted (there have certainly been enough pointless threads about what Gandalf's class is here at ENWorld). Then again, Odysseus had been cited as the quintessential bard archetype in official D&D sourcebooks, so that's what I'd go with.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

You appear to be working under the premise that representing a character with an NPC class is tatamount to a demotion or dismissal of worth. In actuality, it's just that PC classes are all designed to be heavily-oriented towards combat, so designing a character that excels at overcoming problems with guile and resourcefulness instead of DPS often leads people to look at the expert or aristocrat.

That's because it *is* a demotion.

NPC classes are for people who, by and large, don't have adventures. Because Odysseus goes out adventuring in life-or-death conflicts, he'd better darn well have a class that supports that choice, otherwise he's going to die.

In trying to represent literary characters with a D&D class, it's going to be a ham-fisted affair at best since D&D long ago de-prioritized the importance of making classes suitably broad in scop that literary figures can be easily transalted (there have certainly been enough pointless threads about what Gandalf's class is here at ENWorld).

Indeed. I once joked that Gandalf had barbarian levels.

Then again, Odysseus had been cited as the quintessential bard archetype in official D&D sourcebooks, so that's what I'd go with.

Pretty much my point; just because he's not the main character in every presentation does not mean he's not heroic in his own right.

For the record, I will note that Mr. Harris is a bit hard to pin down for a class from a FRPG. Given that he was often referred to as the "heart" of the Scoobies, of existing 3.5 classes, I'd suggest Marshal as being the closest fit.

Brad

 

[WayneLigon]

Alfred fights when he needs to. He was a WWII intel agent and quite capable in combat in his younger days. He's a superb actor, field medic, and spy. So he probably fails the criteria as well.

You're going to find a number of precedents in the Golden Age comics. Almost every hero worth his salt had a sidekick, and not in the Robin sense. Green Lantern had taxidriver Doiby Dickles, the Guardian had The Newsboy Legion, etc. Often they were poor, working joes who just got caught up in the superheroes events and were occassionally able to lend a real hand. They're often used for comedic relief but many are brave in their own right. They'd tackle a bad guy they saw menacing their buddy. They didn't get captured or put in danger all that often -- that was usually reserved for the kid sidekicks (but be sorry for anyone who ties up Bucky...) or love interests -- they were often the hero's 'man on the street'.

Little Boy Blue and his friends are just kids. No training other than kids sports, home made costumes, and still they go out and take on mobsters. The Newsboy Legion were homeless boys with no combat training, but still they took on Nazi menaces they uncovered. I think you could find several other examples; many of your early non-powered heroes I would go so far as to say they didn't have 'extraordinary' combat skills. They just had the pure guts to put on a mask and use some high-school boxing training to take on the bad guys.