XP as Cash for Items and Spells

[ender_wiggin]

An issue came up between in one of my games regarding the use of XP to fuel the creation of magical items. One of my players feels that xp should not be used (in compensation for raised material cost, increased time, etc). I feel that this is not the best idea.

The two sides of the issue are pretty simple.

(a) XP for items is good. From a narrative standpoint, it really forces the characters to continually "be out there" doing things, rather than spending the vast majority of their time indoors inactive. Of course, I'm confident enough of my DMing abilities to pull them out anyway, but a stubborn player can be stubborn. And a mid-level abusive player, of course, can do all sorts of unruly things. We agree that this may become a problem. "If it's a rule I'll use it," he says.

(b) XP for items is bad. If a sorcerer spends some time crafting wands of magic missile, he could go down a level and forget how to cast fireball, no? But if a carpenter is skilled at building houses, and he does a few side projects to build cabinets, he doesn't forget how to build a house does he? Even if the word "XP" is changed to something more abstract and subtle, like "karma", the problem still persists, as players (this player, particularly) is uncomfortable with giving up previous experience to simple but much needed items like scrolls.

There have been a number of avenues we've already taken but I'd like something refreshing on the subject.

Any thoughts?

 

[Jack Simth]

Umm... I don't believe you're actually permitted to spend xp sufficient to actually reduce your level....

Edit: Ah, for casting, we have:

XP Cost (XP): Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

(Emphasis added)

having a little trouble finding the same for item creation....

 

[Raigon]

I dont think the issue here is losing the level. The issue is how xp is used in item creation. However the player CAN efectivly loose a lvl compared to the other members of the party.

 

[Jack Simth]

Ah, but that's not what was listed in the OP as "XP for items is bad" - losing levels and forgetting, say, Fireball, is what was specifically mentioned. As far as I'm aware, you're simply not permitted to spend that much XP. Sure, you can fall behind, but then the XP tables push you up on your XP advancement, and unless you're pushing it down for one reason or another, you'll be back up to par without too much of a delay.

 

[reanjr]

I don't think it should matter either way. Someone can sell XP for gold by way of making magical items. They can buy XP with gold for the creation of magic items by purchasing magical items from others.

I don't even have a problem with spending XP past your last level. You do not lose a level, but you must make up for it (and cannot go below 0). You could also apply negative levels (much easier to handle than going down in level).

The magic item costs are pretty much bunk. The XP costs are very ad hoc. In my opinion, a magical item should have a Magic Point cost. The MP could be reached by expending XP, materials, or quests. One might limit it somewhat (some materials must always be used, for example).

MP cost = DMG gp cost / 2
1 MP = 1 gp of materials
25 MP = 1 XP
100 MP = each CR of a challenge that must be overcome to create the item

Example:

Wizard wants to make Drums of Panic. Looking it up in DMG, it has a cost of 30,000gp so it would have a cost of 15,000 MP.

The wizard decides that to make the drums, he will use leather made from an adult black dragon (CR 11), a creature known for its Frightful Presence ability. The dragon leather is worth 1100 MP (100 for each CR), reducing the cost to 13,900.

Then he decides that he is going to make the framework for the drums out of wood from the foundation of the haunted manor up on the hill. During the trip, he encounters several CR 3 wights (15 of them) and a pair of CR 9 ghosts. Total worth of the drum framework is 6300 MP, reducing the cost to 7,600 MP.

At this point, he's ready to make the drums. The DM can rule that no more than 1,500 gp can be expended in materials (how many more materials could he possibly need?) or she could have a blanket 50% XP rule or however she wants to do it.

In this case the DM has decided that she will allow up to 75% of the cost of the item to be funded with gold, in this case 11,250 MP. The player spends 7,600gp on the item and has expended no XP. Even though no XP was spent, the player was still forced to go out adventuring.

 

[Jack Simth]

I don't think it should matter either way. Someone can sell XP for gold by way of making magical items.

Not with core rules/feats/et cetera under the default assumption on selling magicals (50% of market), as it costs 50% of the market price in GP to get the materials, so you break even. Mind you, with the assorted cost-reduction feats in .... where were they? .... you can actually make a profit that way.....at the cost of XP.

 

[reanjr]

I suppose that's the case if magic items are sold at a static value every time, but few campaigns I've played in are run like that. Haggling can change things a bit.

 

[ender_wiggin]

Unfortunately, I'm always wary of adding numbers unneccessarily. Resultantly, I'm rather unwilling to implement a new kind of tallying system. It's kind of like an addiction. If I do it, pretty soon there's gonna be mana points that are different from divine points that are different from druidic points. (Trust me).

Mainly, I believe it's a flavor thing, though Raigon may claim otherwise.

One solution we've began to examine is that the creation of magic items is somehow detrimental to a character's health, though for whatever reason, instead of his abilities being drained or his hp taken away, xp is the target.

So something permanent, even against restoration spells and the like.

 

[Paraxis]

A concept I am wanting to try for my next campain is not to give xp based on CR but by another system and to be honest it won't even be xp I will just level the group when it is time.

This means items had to not be made with xp anymore. So I am going to use gold for xp when item creation or a spell wants xp.

The formula is simple 5gp per XP point. This is in addition to the normal gold cost of making an item and normal expensive spell components.

Should work out just fine.

 

[babomb]

(b) XP for items is bad. If a sorcerer spends some time crafting wands of magic missile, he could go down a level and forget how to cast fireball, no? But if a carpenter is skilled at building houses, and he does a few side projects to build cabinets, he doesn't forget how to build a house does he?

Indeed, one could make the argument (game unbalancing as it may be) that making items should earn XP for making magic items, just as a carpenter earns XP for making cabinets. The counter arguments are, naturally, game balance and "infusing his life essence" into the item.

The best solution I've seen is to give the caster a separate pool of XP to spend on magic items (call it MP or whatever if you like). For example, grant (level + # magic item feats) * 100 XP per level for making items, and limit the amount that can be rolled over to the next level, if any. (N.B. I just made up that number. It's probably not balanced well.) Alternatively, you could ditch the Craft ____ feats and replace with a single Craft Magic Item feat that grants an increasing amount of magic item XP each time it is taken. Allowing (or requiring) rare items that must be quested for to replace XP is also good.

Magic Item
Benefit: You gain the ability to create magic items. You gain an amount of magic points (MP) according to the table below. MP can be used to pay the XP costs of magic items instead of, or in addition to, using your XP. Each MP pays for 1 XP of the cost.

#of times taken | MP
         1      | 250
         2      | 1000
         3      | 2250
         4      | 4000
         5      | 6250
         6      | 9000
         7      | 12250
         8      | 16000
         9      | 20250
        10      | 25000

(Again, I'm just eyeballing the numbers. They're probably not very good.)
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.