Ye olde classic unarmed strike/natural weapon question.

[Iku Rex]

A close analogy, but not good enough. It fails when you realize that "spiked chain" is a specific weapon, and "flurry of blows" is not. Flurry of blows is a special attack, spiked chain is not. Flurry of blows requires a full attack action, a spiked chain does not. Therefore, this is a straw man.

Pointing out how an analogy isn't 100% perfect is hardly proof that it's a straw man. If it was 100% identical in all ways it would be useless, as it would be 100% as unclear (or not) and add nothing.

None of the differences you listed are relevant to the use of the words "when using..." You are forced to admit that "when using" don't always apply to the entire round.

I've answered this one multiple times. Allowing secondary natural weapons is an explicit exception. You know this is true, so this argument is a straw man, a red herring, or both.

This is the supposedly "explicit" (I think you meant "implied", which works just as well for me in principle) exception you keep quoting: "Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack."

This is the rule I keep quoting: "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons".

Are you saying it's impossible to "combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons" without "[receiving] additional attacks from a high base attack bonus"? (Thus leading to an implied exception?)

Example:
I'm a lizardfolk warrior with a greatsword. If I make one attack with my greatsword and one bite attack I've contradicted none of the above rules, regardless of interpretation. If I make two attacks with my greatsword and then a bite attack I've contradicted the rule about receiving additional attacks from a high base attack bonus "when using" natural weapons. IF I am in fact "using natural weapons" throughout the round.

(There's another possible oddity. Even if the rule about combining attacks was an exception allowing you to make iterative attacks from BAB "when using" natural weapons, that would not keep said attacks from counting as "natural weapons". Right? Just as every attack in a theoretical flurry + natural attacks full attack action would supposedly have to be a "flurry of blows attack". If I am "using natural weapons" then presumably my greatsword attacks will benefit from an amulet of might fists (improves natural weapons). Yes? And a reach weapon would technically not protect me from an effect that triggers when you strike a creature with a "natural weapon"?)

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As an aside, is it not true that when combining weapon attacks with natural weapons, you get only one natural weapon attack? That's an aside because it is not really material to the discussion at hand.

No, it's not. While you only get one natural attack on a standard action, if you're using a full attack action you get them all, even if you're using manufactured weapons as well. For reference, see the statblock for the Thri-Kreen in the XPH. He attacks with a longspear, plus two claws, plus bite.

edit: ...however, all natural attacks used in combination with manufactured weapons are considered secondary attacks, and so take a -5 penalty (-2 with multiattack) even if they would normally be primary attacks.

 

[billd91]

No, it's not. While you only get one natural attack on a standard action, if you're using a full attack action you get them all, even if you're using manufactured weapons as well. For reference, see the statblock for the Thri-Kreen in the XPH. He attacks with a longspear, plus two claws, plus bite.

See also the centaur who gets two hooves with his manufactured weapon attacks.

 

[Artoomis]

No, it's not. While you only get one natural attack on a standard action, if you're using a full attack action you get them all, even if you're using manufactured weapons as well. For reference, see the statblock for the Thri-Kreen in the XPH. He attacks with a longspear, plus two claws, plus bite.

The XPH is 3.0, isn't it? Or am I getting my book abbreviations mixed up?

I am really just curioous as to which way it works - it obviously does not matte for this topic.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

See also the centaur who gets two hooves with his manufactured weapon attacks.

Noted, but I picked the thri-kreen because he gets two different kinds of natural weapons, which preempts a further question: "do you have to pick one natural weapon like claw or bite as your natural weapon attack, or do you get them all?"

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The XPH is 3.0, isn't it? Or am I getting my book abbreviations mixed up?

I am really just curioous as to which way it works - it obviously does not matte for this topic.

XPH is 3.5. I can't remember the shorthand for the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. I'd have posted the relevant portion of the statblock, but the thri-kreen is notably absent from the SRD.

 

[IcyCool]

The XPH is 3.0, isn't it? Or am I getting my book abbreviations mixed up?

No, it is 3.5. So is the MM Centaur example. I think one of the devils also has natural attacks mixed with it's manufactured weapon attacks, but if I recall that stat block was in error about something.

 

[Artoomis]

See also the centaur who gets two hooves with his manufactured weapon attacks.

Thanks for the SRD-contained example. Oddly enough, in that example he ONLY gets natural weapons to attack with in a full attack. I'll assume that's just a simple error.

In any case, it looks like the number of natural attacks you get in a full attack combined with regular weapons is creature-dependent, which makes sense.

 

[Artoomis]

No, it is 3.5. So is the MM Centaur example. I think one of the devils also has natural attacks mixed with it's manufactured weapon attacks, but if I recall that stat block was in error about something.

Cool. Got it, Thanks, guys, for straightening me out on this one.

 

[billd91]

Thanks for the SRD-contained example. Oddly enough, in that example he ONLY gets natural weapons to attack with in a full attack. I'll assume that's just a simple error.

In any case, it looks like the number of natural attacks you get in a full attack combined with regular weapons is creature-dependent, which makes sense.

I don't think it's an error, really. I think it's a judgement on what the centaur will attack you with if he only gets one poke at you as standard action. He's not going to stomp on you. He's going to hit you with something civilized, like an axe or spear.

EDIT: I didn't pick the centaur specifically because he was listed in the SRD, but he was the first one who came to mind when I popped open my SRD to find an example. So, it was a self-limited example, I guess.