D&D 5E Yes to factionalism. No to racism.

[John R Davis]

Maybe I'm missing something, but are drow based on stereotypes about dark-skinned people, or are they just evil bastards who happen to have a dark skin?

Good point.
In Fantasy RPG land:

Skin colour should have no effect on whether you are the villain.
Gender should have no effect on whether you are the villain.
Your culture may have an effect on whether you are the villain.
Your religious belief may have an effect on whether you are the villain.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Another problem that I have with factions is the assumption that people choose to join them. Meh. Maybe, maybe not even if they were not conscripted.

Trying to stay away from real world politics too much, but most people who are religious follow the same religion they were raised in. If I was born in Minnesota and my parents were fans of the Vikings I'm probably going to be a fan of the Vikings if I follow (American) football. A Vikings fan may be a fan of an individual player on another team, but they're probably not going to suddenly become a fan of the Packers.

So if you look at religions as a valid faction the majority of people don't really choose, they're born into it. This is even more true in the day and age before modern communication. If you were born into a community that worshipped Pelor, you probably worship Pelor and all other gods aren't even a consideration*.

It's also true for what country you fight for, who you consider your enemy, standing on various issues such as personal rights versus societal rights, on and on. Even things like slavery. If you grew up in a culture where slavery was the norm, IMHO whether an individual fights to abolish slavery should not be a litmus test for whether someone is good or evil. Sadly, when I was growing up I was taught that many slaves were well cared for and relatively happy (small town, older teacher). If that was the only message I heard my entire life, my opinion on the subject may have been misguided.

But again, the game doesn't need to model real world morality. I don't think it should even try to do so as the base core assumption.

P.S. If you don't think sports fans are religious about what teams they follow I'm sure you could find some youtube videos that seem to prove otherwise.

*In the real world most polytheistic religions didn't really have a single god that they worshipped, although some like the Greeks had patron deities for their city. Worshipping a single deity out of many wasn't normally a thing.

The game is trying to model real world morality, because the simpler versions are no longer acceptable. This is why it's so hard to separate this stuff from real world politics. It's all blended together with the game now, because some people have demanded more nuance, and that means more complexity.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I went hunting for a couple of days, and it looks like during my absence something weird happened. At least I have a wild duck.

I certainly can get behind getting rid of fictional races being coded as real-world oppressed minorities, but just removing all the stereotypes about all the fictional groups is, honestly, real weird.


Maybe I'm missing something, but are drow based on stereotypes about dark-skinned people, or are they just evil bastards who happen to have a dark skin?

I always assumed it was that second thing, but apparently we were wrong.

 

[Marandahir]

I went hunting for a couple of days, and it looks like during my absence something weird happened. At least I have a wild duck.

I certainly can get behind getting rid of fictional races being coded as real-world oppressed minorities, but just removing all the stereotypes about all the fictional groups is, honestly, real weird.


Maybe I'm missing something, but are drow based on stereotypes about dark-skinned people, or are they just evil bastards who happen to have a dark skin?

I always assumed it was that second thing, but apparently we were wrong.

No, I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm not saying that Drow were purposefully created as racist caricatures.

They were based on Dark Alfar from Norse Mythology (or at least, the common misconception that Dark Alfar were somehow dark-skinned Elves rather than just another name for Dwarves/Dvergr, seeing as they're Elves of the dark mines below the earth). That misconception, even if innocent, was popularized probably in part due to systematic implicit racism, though. Maybe not intentionally, but in practice it's played out that way.

I'm saying that whole cloth "all dark skinned version of a thing are evil", even with exceptions (that prove the rule), are going to push away people and it's going to lend itself to racist comparisons and adaptations that drive away people who are otherwise potential consumers of the product. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

WotC want to be as inclusive as possible, not just because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's where the market for the game has shifted. That means gutting out anything that even smell a whiff of potential racism. That's a good thing.

 

[Oofta]

No, I'm not saying that Drow were purposefully created as racist caricatures. They were based on Dark Alfar from Norse Mythology (or at least, the common misconception that Dark Alfar were somehow dark-skinned Elves rather than just another name for Dwarves/Dvergr, seeing as they're Elves of the dark mines below the earth).

I'm saying that whole cloth "all dark skinned version of a thing are evil", even with exceptions (that prove the rule), are going to push away people and it's going to lend itself to racist comparisons and adaptations that drive away people who are otherwise potential consumers of the product.

WotC want to be as inclusive as possible, not just because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's where the market for the game has shifted. That means gutting out anything that even smell a whiff of potential racism. That's a good thing.

The evil races, particularly drow and duergar being black (or gray) skinned and evil has always been a bit problematic. Then for some reason orcs started following a similar pattern with gray skin in the images.

I came up with a justification for it in my campaign, where the underdark's radiation is the cause. Even then their skin is dark gray, not black ... and I still hesitate to use drow very often.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The evil races, particularly drow and duergar being black (or gray) skinned and evil has always been a bit problematic. Then for some reason orcs started following a similar pattern with gray skin in the images.

I came up with a justification for it in my campaign, where the underdark's radiation is the cause. Even then their skin is dark gray, not black ... and I still hesitate to use drow very often.

See, I don't use Drow because I dislike elves in general and because my wife has a phobia about spiders. None of this other stuff has ever been a problem in any of my games. That being said, WotC isnt really fixing the problem by inventing new good Drow from literally nowhere and then not actually depicting them in their materials (just mentioning they exist won't satisfy the folks who are angry).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That being said, WotC isnt really fixing the problem by inventing new good Drow from literally nowhere and then not actually depicting them in their materials (just mentioning they exist won't satisfy the folks who are angry).

Whilst I concur that's a non-solution, doesn't it appear to be the first step to at least one potential solution?

First you need to create the thing, then you place it into the world and depict it in the materials. You don't necessarily need to do it all at once.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The evil races, particularly drow and duergar being black (or gray) skinned and evil has always been a bit problematic.

I still remember the moment when I realized Drow were "problematic" (even thought I didn't know the word then), not just the artists who depicted them (I'd already seen weird "Drow as brown-skinned" covers of adventures from the '80s, and put that down to "artists ignoring the brief"). It was when Jarlaxle was described in one of the early Drizzt books (which a friend had given me, not the same friend who gave me the Prism Pentad - I stopped talking to that guy!), and it just seemed obvious to me that he was basically intended to be dressed like a 1970s pimp (totally unlike any other character), and like, even if he wasn't, everything around the situation made it seem like he was, so it was still problematic. I was about 14-15. And then I thought about how they were dark-skinned and the "bad guys" and I started frowning a lot.

 

[Oofta]

I still remember the moment when I realized Drow were "problematic" (even thought I didn't know the word then), not just the artists who depicted them (I'd already seen weird "Drow as brown-skinned" covers of adventures from the '80s, and put that down to "artists ignoring the brief"). It was when Jarlaxle was described in one of the early Drizzt books (which a friend had given me, not the same friend who gave me the Prism Pentad - I stopped talking to that guy!), and it just seemed obvious to me that he was basically intended to be dressed like a 1970s pimp (totally unlike any other character), and like, even if he wasn't, everything around the situation made it seem like he was, so it was still problematic. I was about 14-15. And then I thought about how they were dark-skinned and the "bad guys" and I started frowning a lot.

Not to mention the whole scantily clad matriarchal dominatrix theme they had going. Admittedly 15 year old me probably thought it was awesome but even back then it was too much.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not to mention the whole scantily clad matriarchal dominatrix theme they had going. Admittedly 15 year old me probably thought it was awesome but even back then it was too much.

I was definitely not complaining about that at that age but as I got older it definitely seemed sillier and sillier, and almost hard to believe that a grown-up had written this by the time I was in my twenties.