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Yet another Ghostbusters movie

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
I don't remmebr much of Revenge of the Nerd beyond it being funny but I do remember it had naked women and the guys were perving at them using cameras IIRC. I also remember one of the lines regarding what they saw which I won't repeat here. IIRC it was nerds vs jocks but its probably been 30 odd years since I have seen that film. Most of the films I remember fondly are things like ET, Gremlins, Goonies, Labyrinth, Ghostbusters, Lost Boys, Batman. Fairly typical 80's movies for the most part and VHS of the 60's and 70's as well- Herbie the Love Bug, Sound of Music, Rocky Horror Picture Show, BLazing Saddles, Watch Out We're Mad.
Well, as far as Revenge of the Nerds goes, there is a quote ... let me google it-

"Revenge Of The Nerds has so much rape culture, you could use it to make rape yogurt." Yeah, that's it. I mean ... yeah, that is definitely a movie that DID NOT age well at all.

But these are the kinds of things you start to notice. For whatever reason, the 80s was really bad with that- not that other eras were great, but the mixture of allowing it to be shown on screen (unlike, say, the 50s and before) and the change in movie culture from the New Hollywood era led to a lot of movies that uncritically reflected aspects of the culture that weren't great.

Sometimes, I wonder how much of that subconsciously influenced people growing up? Again, it's not all movies; ROTN (and 16 Candles) was particularly jarring, whereas GB just was ... not great in some parts. But it's weird, because sometimes I will put on a movie like that, and I won't remember that it had certain scenes, and I'll be like WOAH like I accidentally shifted into reverse while I was 80 on the freeway. ;)
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
I've watched Ghostbusters 1 with kids who are half my age if not a tad younger (mind you I'm only 33) and they found Venkman's attempts pathetically funny.
Cool story, bro.

I've watched it with 12-13 year olds, and it required some explanation. Then again- they are gifted, since they play TTRPGs. ;)
 
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trappedslider

Explorer
Cool story, bro.

I've watched it with 12-13 year olds, and it required some explanation. Then again- they are gifted, since they play TTRPGs.
the only thing I had to explain was the shock experiment which I was asked about and was thus summed up : "so basically it was just to see how much they would put up with it?" "Yup" along with the game show host reference....

EDIT: Found it.. Crosses the Line Twice https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrossesTheLineTwice

Essentially, a Moral Event Horizon Played for Laughs.

So sleazy it's funny.
 
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billd91

Hobbit on Quest
I mean .... kind of? Yes, Venkman has to learn to less of a jerk (the, um, hero's journey, so to speak), but there's no question that-

a. He's the hero; and
b. All the good quotes and lines are his. Fun fact- this is probably because all of the lines you are so fond of were ad libbed by Bill Murray. He was basically improv'ing his whole role in terms of dialogue.


....but, I think that saying he is a "womanizer" is a wee bit of an understatement. Again, this was something that could be played for laughs in the 80s, and has not aged well. It happens (see also, Revenge of the Nerds, Sixteen Candles, pretty much all of the 80s movies to greater or lesser extents).
I don't really think it's an understatement. Venkman is a womanizer but he still doesn't cross the lines crossed in either Revenge of the Nerds or Sixteen Candles. He tries to schmooze the coed by deceiving her about how well she's doing, not by deceiving her, at this point potential, consent by having sex with her under the pretense he's actually someone else. In fact, he resists the temptation to take advantage of Dana when it's clear he could actually do so.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I don't really think it's an understatement. Venkman is a womanizer but he still doesn't cross the lines crossed in either Revenge of the Nerds or Sixteen Candles. He tries to schmooze the coed by deceiving her about how well she's doing, not by deceiving her, at this point potential, consent by having sex with her under the pretense he's actually someone else. In fact, he resists the temptation to take advantage of Dana when it's clear he could actually do so.
I dunno. He does carry enough tranquilliser to kill a horse when on a date.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
Killing has never been considered a good and desirable thing, and yet movies - be they classics or just some mindless fun or unfun movie - are full of it, and often the "cool" protagonist is the one that does a lot of killing, but it's okay, because he's the hero and fighting the good fight. Maybe for that reason it should be no surprise at all that maybe the "creepy" or "stalkery" 80s characters weren't such a big deal.
 

trappedslider

Explorer
That has always been one of the weirdest throw away lines in the film to me.
I just figured he went to a pharmacy or had it delivered..he has Ph.D.s in both parapsychology and psychology. Also Thorazine was prescribed by doctors as a sedative for anxiety and sleeplessness. And her room looks ransacked...so she could have had it and the dosage was just a goof....also

The official Richard Mueller novelization describes him hunting around in her apartment for medical supplies. Quite why she has powerful sedatives on hand isn't explained in any detail although someone who lives in "spook central" could feasibly be suffering from insomnia, hearing voices, mild paranoia or migraines, all of which are treatable with Thorazine:

Dana Barrett still floated above the bed while Peter Venkman rummaged through the drawers of her dresser. "She’s an artist", he thought. "She’s got to have some Valium somewhere."

It's worth noting that Louis was buying painkillers by the bucketload to deal with his headaches.

“I have acetylsalicylic acid but I get the generic from Walgreen’s cause I can get six hundred tablets for thirty-five percent less than the cost of three hundred of the name brand. Do you have a headache?”

as an aside I need to get a copy of the movie with the trivia track,which has all kinds of bits...lol the fact that in each take the interest on the loan went up ..lol
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
I just figured he went to a pharmacy or had it delivered..he has Ph.D.s in both parapsychology and psychology. Also Thorazine was prescribed by doctors as a sedative for anxiety and sleeplessness. And her room looks ransacked...so she could have had it and the dosage was just a goof....also

The official Richard Mueller novelization describes him hunting around in her apartment for medical supplies. Quite why she has powerful sedatives on hand isn't explained in any detail although someone who lives in "spook central" could feasibly be suffering from insomnia, hearing voices, mild paranoia or migraines, all of which are treatable with Thorazine:

Dana Barrett still floated above the bed while Peter Venkman rummaged through the drawers of her dresser. "She’s an artist", he thought. "She’s got to have some Valium somewhere."

It's worth noting that Louis was buying painkillers by the bucketload to deal with his headaches.

“I have acetylsalicylic acid but I get the generic from Walgreen’s cause I can get six hundred tablets for thirty-five percent less than the cost of three hundred of the name brand. Do you have a headache?”

as an aside I need to get a copy of the movie with the trivia track,which has all kinds of bits...lol the fact that in each take the interest on the loan went up ..lol
So, a few things-

1. Acetylsalicylic acid is just a fancy name for aspirin. That's the joke. Just because someone has aspirin, doesn't mean they have thorazine.

2. The novelization was post hoc; an explanation after the fact.

3. The dosage was definitely a goof.

4. Venkman's Ph.Ds wouldn't let him get something prescribed.

5. It was clearly a "line," and to the extent there is any commentary from the people involved afterwards (I believe Reitman) it was treated as a joke without further explanation, which means that-

a. In the most favorable light, it was for Venkman (iow, he was a partier).

b. In the most unfavorable light, he was ... a womanizer. Ahem. It wasn't like "jokes" about that sort of thing were unheard of at the time.


Regardless, it's kind of orthogonal to the other issues no matter how you look at it. Even without that, there's still a lot that's uncomfortable; but, again, it is an 80s movie, and it's not the worst.
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
We get it...what was funny then not so much now :hmm:

EDIT: remind me of this http://www.cracked.com/article_25354_uh-venkman-from-ghostbusters-was-probably-sexual-predator.html there feel better?

For all those who aren't buzz kills [/B]
So, you understand that there's a difference between appreciating something and being able to acknowledge that it is of its time, and understanding why that can still be a problem, right? That's not being a buzz-kill, it's just being honest, and if people are discussing bringing this particular IP back, it only makes sense to understand what made it successful in the first place without the blinders of nostalgia.

I mean, I can love my OD&D and, especially, my early 1e books and still notice that the illustrations that I grew up loving are, in some cases, not very welcoming to female gamers. I can celebrate and enjoy them for what they are, and were, while still understanding why it made some people uncomfortable, and why we've moved away from that.

Or that a brilliant movie like Chinatown was directed by someone who wasn't a very good person.

It's life- I mean, the Ghostbusters was 35 years ago! It would be kind of shocking if parts of it hadn't aged well. It would be like ... oh, someone from 1984 discussing movies from 1949.

And comedy, notoriously, has issues with age. For every Duck Soup, there's a thousand examples like Delirious (from 1983, which is Eddie Murphy at he height of his comedic talent, but parts ... yeah, just didn't age well).
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
5. It was clearly a "line," and to the extent there is any commentary from the people involved afterwards (I believe Reitman) it was treated as a joke without further explanation, which means that-

a. In the most favorable light, it was for Venkman (iow, he was a partier).

b. In the most unfavorable light, he was ... a womanizer. Ahem. It wasn't like "jokes" about that sort of thing were unheard of at the time.


Regardless, it's kind of orthogonal to the other issues no matter how you look at it. Even without that, there's still a lot that's uncomfortable; but, again, it is an 80s movie, and it's not the worst.
Keeping in mind this was the first half of the 1980s and drug humor was better known than date-rape humor, I always assumed it was for recreational use.

However, since it's also used to suppress psychoses and hallucinations, it could make sense for a parapsychologist with a loose relationship to strict regulations to carry it around.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
I'm not sure if I agree.

I'd argue that those afore mentioned things were always wrong, regardless of the changing social mores.
Depends. Some things may be always wrong, but the interpretation of a situation may depend on a certain cultural assumption that has changed over time. It's how you get from "Baby, It's Cold Outside" from being an Oscar-winning song written and originally performed as banter to being considered date-rapey. Same, probably, with Venkman's thorazine which may have shifted from being assumed to be for personal recreation to, again, being date-rapey.
 

lowkey13

Exterminate all rational thought
Keeping in mind this was the first half of the 1980s and drug humor was better known than date-rape humor, I always assumed it was for recreational use.
Well, I wish it was all Cheech and Chong ... but ....

1. Bill Cosby of course. It was a staple of not just his, but a lot of standup.

2. Revenge of the Nerds.

3. Meatballs. (Also with Bill Murray) had ... um, wrestling.

4. 16 Candles. Oof. If she's drunk, it's okay!

5. Animal House. Oh.

...and so on. I guess I am a buzzkill, but if you go back and look at the comedies of the late 70s into the 80s .... yeah, date-rape (or rape-rape) was often treated as a punchline.
 

Satyrn

Villager
b. In the most unfavorable light, he was ... a womanizer. Ahem. It wasn't like "jokes" about that sort of thing were unheard of at the time.
I recently watched a couple seasons of Taxi. There were an awful lot of jokes about Louie raping Elaine.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
I recently watched a couple seasons of Taxi. There were an awful lot of jokes about Louie raping Elaine.
Try Watching Married With Children as well.

I was around at the time for a lot of these shows. Missed a few jokes as I was young but at the time it generally wan't a big deal or it was so over the top people knew not to get offended by it (Blazing Saddle). Gay jokes were very much a staple of 80's comedies. Married With Children was designed to offend but the context of it was Al is a jackass and things like racism are not OK. One of Al's infamous lines that was controversial at the time was "And they wonder why we call them queens" in reference to drag queens. They also refused to screen an episode which was basically a sex tape (it screened here but not in the USA).

Animal House seemed to have started the frat boy type comedies as well. Anything that National Lampoon was doing was deliberately designed to offend, there is a decent show on Netflix about it. Early Bond movies as well where Bond strikes a women are shocking now. The only places you see male on female violence is usually in shows making a point (its not OK), or the female in question is so powerful its considered fine (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, super heros).
 
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Zardnaar

Adventurer
Watched in interesting video on youtube. The movies where they are taking beloved franchises and replacing men with women seem to be underperforming (Ghostbusters, Oceans 8) or they are changing course (Star Wars).

Those movies that are more original with a female/minority lead seem to be doing fine ( Black Panther, Wonder Women). Basically if you push the diversity thing to hard and make a bad movie it can blow up. Do it cleverly and make a good movie its fine.
 
Watched in interesting video on youtube. The movies where they are taking beloved franchises and replacing men with women seem to be underperforming (Ghostbusters, Oceans 8)
Ocean's 8 returned $297M on a $70M budget and was the #1 movie the week it was released. Likewise, Ghostbusters may not have knocked it out of the park, but still managed to make about $85M over its budget before home video, and clearly made enough money to justify another movie in the franchise. Don't confuse "underperforming" with "heavily criticized".
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
Ocean's 8 returned $297M on a $70M budget and was the #1 movie the week it was released. Likewise, Ghostbusters may not have knocked it out of the park, but still managed to make about $85M over its budget before home video, and clearly made enough money to justify another movie in the franchise. Don't confuse "underperforming" with "heavily criticized".
Oceans 8 earned a lot less money than other films in the franchise. Adjusted for inflation its alot less. Oceans 11 was $450 million adjusted for inflation its 638 million. Star Wars revenue is also down as those figures also came out recently.

Ghost busters (2016) made 229 million, GB 1984 made 295 million ( 712 million inflation adjusted).

And marketing costs are a lot higher now. Dress it up how you like the remakes are making about half to a third of the originals. Punters are voting with their feet, hell Disney probably lost money on Solo and TLJ made 30% more money than Rogue One and sales of the toys are down as well. That is not opinion its fact its in their annual report a few weeks ago. Disney Marvel is in a good place, SW not so much.

Put simply the fans of a lot of these franchises are not happy and he numbers seem to backing them up. 5 Star Wars film cancelled, Rian Johnson go bye bye, Kathleen Kennedy promoted to a role removing her from Star Wars. The Terminator franchise could be another example. At the end of the day they have to make a good movies regardless of what type of story they are trying to tell and its not a SJW/diversity thing either (Black Panther and Wonder Women were big hits). Its basically stop butchering classic movies. They are basically doing the same thing 4E did, not giving the fans what they want/living up to expectations. Hypothetical new fans are not as good as your baked in loyalists spanning decades although ideally you want both.

All these franchises at the end of the day have similar problems. 5E is a good counter example, way more diverse but its fundamentally good at least for most people.
 
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