Yet another look at KotSF/4th Ed.

[Cheesepie]

EDIT: Sorry, double post.

 

[Endroren]

Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to be a jerk when I ask is...I'm trying to understand the differing opinions.

What IS a roleplaying game to you?​

In other words, what does a game system have to include to be able to honestly include the words "Roleplaying Game" somewhere on the cover? Some manner of definition must be possible, otherwise one could call anything an RPG.

 

[Stomphoof]

Could you please point out where he stated that Keep on the Shadowfell is a comprehensive rules compendium for the 4E game system? He did not. However, he did say that KotS was a "A $30 book dubbed "An Introduction to Dungeons and Dragons" that professes to show you what it is like to play the game.", and the game it showed him was not to his taste.

Is KotS-only 4E the same game as real 4E? I seriously doubt it. In that case, didn't Wizards monumentally screw up their introductory adventure?

EDIT: Please note that I am very, very in favour of 4E. It's just Endroren's opinion is not invalid.

Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.

In my opinion, he is acting irrationally.

However, I do not believe his opinion is invalid. I never said that. I am simply pointing out flaws in his logic.

In the end, all I have to say is this

"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".

 

[brehobit]

Probably because it's an idiotic impression

Don't hold back now!

 

[JeffB]

I'll preface by saying I like KOTS so far (and I was all set up NOT to). However I think it's been marketed very poorly.

Its a horrible introduction to the game of D&D

Its a good introduction to the 4E rule-set for players familiar with the game previously


I think Wizards should have gone the 3E route: i.e. 3 core books, an introductory adventure (that requires the 3 books) and a "basic set" with streamlined rules and adventure material for the Novice.

 

[Ingolf]

Show me these rules in 4E that support the sort of things I'm talking about and you will convince me that it isn't Hero Quest II.

I suspect that as soon as 4e is available, someone here will take you up on that challenge.

 

[Vendark]

Reaction rolls?
Haggling skill?
Seduction skills?
Gaining followers and determining their willingness to follow orders?
Rules for determining whether a hireling is likely to work for you based on your personality?
Disads including psychological and social?

GURPS, HERO, 1E and 2E D&D, Hackmaster, RIFTS, even 3.0 and 3.5. ALL of these have hard rules for roleplaying. And I'm not even delving into the "diceless" or "dice light" systems.

Hold on, you're saying that the Trading and Seduction skills in HERO (for instance) count as roleplaying rules, but the Diplomacy and Bluff skills in 4E don't? What criteria are you using to make that distinction?

 

[Cheesepie]

Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.

Considering this is the preview adventure and that Wizards intends it to show players what it is like to play the game, I would think that's what Wizards would want him to think as well.

"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".

He is! But he damn well has the right to discuss it with other gamers on the interbutts, doesn't he?!

 

[Endroren]

Its not an explicit statement however he is repeatedly stating that since this is the intro adventure then this is the way the game is meant to be played and is acting in a manner that suggests that he believes that this is the way 4th Ed is going to work out.

What is the point of an intro adventure if it doesn't intorduce you to the game? I think your logic is irrational and flawed frankly. Either WotC botched the job, which worries me about the rest of what 4E has in store, OR this really IS the game, in which case I'm equally worried.

So far, depsite people being sure for some unclear reason that this ISN'T the case, WotC has TOLD us this is the game...this, the way the module plays, IS 4E. If it ISN'T, then it's about the dumbest introduction ever...like a crappy trailer for a great movie.

"If you dont like the game as it is, then dont buy it and quit worrying about it".

Ah yes, the "if you don't like it shut up". Seriously, I've given D&D thousands and thousands of dollars over the past 20 years and more time then any other thing in my life outside my family. I have a stake in this hobby and I have every right to be disappointed, and seek SOME sort of hope that I'm wrong, if it seems they've tossed out much of what I've long loved about the game.

So please, don't suggest that "if you don't like it go away." I can look for answers.

 

[Stomphoof]

He is! But he damn well has the right to discuss it with other gamers on the interbutts, doesn't he?!

Possibly. I would hope people are smart enough though to realize that a preview adventure simply cannot possibly contain everything about a game. It is a preview after all. Perhaps that is why we dont see one of each class as a pregen? They had to release the Warlord on the web, and we still dont have a pregen Warlock.

Also, they added a skill challenge online to add to the preview adventure as well.

Furthermore, he does have every right to discuss it. However, he seems to be getting his "panties in a wad" so to speak over it.

I will say this: I bought KotS so I could test out what, in my opinion, would be the greatest change to DnD - Combat. Thats what I expect.

I may not like the changes once I get to actually put them in place. I may decide I love em.

But to imply that 4th Ed is going to be exactly like this preview adventure is just outright silly.