You asked~Female gamers

[Wolfspider]

These are innate traits that are caused by our gender. Men are inclinded to be dominating, forceful and heroic. Women are inclined to be pragmatic, understanding and prosocial.

If men tend to be innately heroic and women do not, then why would most women be interested in heroic fantasy in the first place?

I think that if d20 had a bigger focus on role-playing, more girls would play. The ratio of girls who play other role-playing games is typically higher than for DnD, and I think that is because other role-playing games, like Vampire, focus more on story-telling and role-playing than combat.

Sadly, in my experience Vampire has been more about combat than storytelling. I've seen more than one troupe of vampires wiped out to the man (and woman) when they tried to take on the city's Prince seconds after meeting him....

I don't buy a lot of those gender "tendancies" myself. I see much of it as just another way of stereotyping.

 

[Particle_Man]

The solution!

The reason that more women don't play D&D is simple! Its the inequity involved in the Jump skill.

The maximum jumping distance according to the skill is a factor of one's height. Yet the average and maximum heights are almost always greater for male than female characters! So unless you are playing an elf (where the heights are the same regardless of gender) or a monk (that at sufficiently high level does not have to worry about maximum jumping limits based on height) you will be at a DISADVANTAGE when playing a female character that wants to use the jump skill.

Once this blatant chauvanism is corrected in 4th ed. D&D, I am certain that female gamers will flock to the game.

(Actually, the campaign I am in has 2 female players -- both beginners but both having fun. One of them is 10 years old and the daughter of the Dm, and the rest of us are 30 somethings. I have found no gender problems as of yet with respect to gaming. Just show respect for others' opinions and choices when you are a player, and show respect for players' wishes when you are a DM.).

 

[BMF]

I don't buy a lot of those gender "tendancies" myself. I see much of it as just another way of stereotyping.

Ask your friends in the Psych. depatment about it, professor spider. That's where I learned it.

It's true that behavior (regardless of gender) is the result of several factors. Some of those factors are external, like social pressure. But other factors are internal, like hormones and brain chemistry.

If men tend to be innately heroic and women do not, then why would most women be interested in heroic fantasy in the first place?

I didn't say women weren't heroic. I implied that men see themselves as heroic, whether they are or not. When men think about themselves, they like to think that they are powerful, dominating, leaders. When women think about themselves, that is NOT what they think. Being a guy, I can't really tell you what women think of themselves. I do kno, however, that many women adapt their self identity from the men they become involved with.

That is the result of social conditioning about the "role" of women though, and is the streotype you are alluding to. Fortunately, those sterotypes are changing and women are more independent in our society than ever before. Perhaps that will lead to more female gamers....


to answer your question though, women like heroic fantasy for many of the same reasons men do. They like the genra. THey like knights, and monsters and castles and so on. They also like the stories and the romance. I doub't many of them really enjoy reading Conan or Elric stories.They prefer other stories....

Sadly, in my experience Vampire has been more about combat than storytelling. I've seen more than one troupe of vampires wiped out to the man (and woman) when they tried to take on the city's Prince seconds after meeting him....

I've had very little contact with Vampire myself, but in my experience, it is more focued on role-playing. Notice in your example, the group was a majority of males.

Find a group of female gamers and you will TYPICALLY find less combat, and more story and character development than in an all male group..

 

[DungeonKeeperUK]

I've always had a good mix of female to male ratio in my games, the one I currently DM is 3 females and 1 male..
I tend to steer more away from the Hack n Slash, so maybe thats why I attract more female gamers, or just my magnetic male personality..

 

[Nikchick]

Vindication!!

I've been saying for years that the focus on violence is one of the major reasons girls don't game. Of course, every time I say that, some GRRL gamer attacks me with, "We are just as violent as men!! Wanna fight about it!!??"

So *one* woman comes forward and says she doesn't like all the violence and fighting... in the same thread another (me) says I don't mind the violence at all. Now, am I reading you right that because LufiaLilystorm says she doesn't like it, you're willing to generalize that to prove you were "right" all along, and my opinion is dismissed as "some GRRL gamer" attacking you?

Sorry, that's just BS.

Nicole

 

[Corinth]

I really don't care if women aren't big into tabletop gaming. If it's not Jane's thing, that's fine with me. So long as she doesn't try to stop me from thwopping orcs with my +1 sword, she can read all of the lame romance novels ever published. Remember that, at it's core, we're talking about adventure gaming. Adventure gaming requires a hearty amount of action and combat for it to be interesting and playable. If Jane's not keen on that, tough.

 

[Richards]

Hey, why are my ears burning?

Originally posted by Mistwell:

A few short adventures in WOTC magazines have appealed to these elements, such as Gorgoland's Gauntlet and Challenge of the Champions (1-4) (and those authors should be promoted!)

Oh, that explains it! Mistwell, I don't know if this will be good news to you or bad, but the reason that "Gorgoldand's Gauntlet" and the 4 "Challenges of Champions" adventures share so many similar traits is that they were written by the same guy...namely, me. Since I'm just a freelancer there's no chance of a promotion for me, but I appreciate the sentiment.

Who knew I was such a proponent of female gamers? I still can't get my wife to join our gaming group!

 

[Kichwas]

One thing is that a lot of the roleplaying is focused around violence. While I like to hack and slash as much as the next gamer I accually hate adventures that require it.

I wouldn't say this is a female thing. I've seen enough male players with this view as well as enough female players (the majority of those I've seen actually) that prefer the violence.

But also, I don't understand things they say in those books. It doesn't have anythign to with being a girl but they are confusing, then they put everything everwhere, the 3e books were much better

This is also not a gender thing of course. Plenty of people have low reading comprehension. I see it all the time in the players around my table and on the boards. Some people get intimidated by it and leave the hobby. Others just learn to accept it and sometimes even overcome it and improve their reading skills.

Modern education systems do a very job of teaching people reading comprehension. Most of the world's nations just teach you to do rote memorization. The USA does focus on critical thinking but does a poor job of it.


Sitting around a table of men staring at you is the real gender item. The only solution there is to even out the gender balance a bit. Bring some more women with you next time. Or just get used to socializing with the opposite gender. That does have distinct advantages in many other aspects of life as well...


On to the next person....

1. Older crowd: From my perspective this is already happening. I think the average consumer is mid 20's if I remember the old WotC survey right. That was before 3E. 3E brought a lot of older gamers back in which may have driven it up even more.

2. I got news for you; comics are still for geeks. They almost went semi mainstream in the 80's but this is the 00's. And the last time I looked at a comic book store it was still so 'over-sexed' in the art as to be uncomfortable even on the geeky hetro-male's in the place. RPGs are firmly branded in the geek spectrum and probably always will be. Even if the bulk of older gamers are not really geeks anymore (from my personal observation: seems the geek ratio thins in the mid-20s, though it's never as high as people think). Perception is what counts with the larger society.

You can create all sorts of marketing to counteract this. And it might have some sort of effect. But you'll never fully get there. At it's heart what you do when you roleplay is very much 'geeky stuff'. To change society's view of gaming you'd have to change their view of 'playing make believe with fantasy'.


3. This I agree would be a good thing; though it will work with both genders. What it really does is get more people like myself who prefer story over action.



None of these concerns seem to really affect the gender issue. Even the old standy of complaining about the art. It's a lot less T&A than the average women's fashion or makeup magazine after all.


What really sets the divde is what sets the race divide as well:
Gamers game with the people they socialize with. Gaming spreads by social contact. It's a social disease.

To spread it; the current group of gamers is going to have to go out and recruit. They're going to have to stop being shy about recruiting women. Just as they're going to have to start socializing with non white.

Otherwise for the most part the hobby will remain a white male hobby. Which it would appear at present seems to suit it's adherants just fine; since I don't see all that much recruitment going on.

 

[BMF]

And here's the first battle axe:

So *one* woman comes forward and says she doesn't like all the violence and fighting... in the same thread another (me) says I don't mind the violence at all. Now, am I reading you right that because LufiaLilystorm says she doesn't like it, you're willing to generalize that to prove you were "right" all along, and my opinion is dismissed as "some GRRL gamer" attacking you?

Notice how eager you are to fight???

If you read my whole post, and my second post, you will see that I am discussing women as a general group. Whenever you do that, exceptions get left out.

I would suggest that you are the exception to the rule when it comes to violence and women. Most women who game are exceptions to that rule. That's why they game. And that's why I get attacked by gamer Grrls every time I say that women are not into violence like men are.

But we are not talking about girls who game already. We are talking about girls who don't game. And why that might be. It remains my contention that MOST women think like LL does, and would rather not spend every gaming session bashing skulls. They would rather do some role-playing and story development. THey would rather have drama and suspence rather that blood and gore.

I would guess that probably 80% of all women think like LL does about violence. If it is necessary, then they will do it, but they would prefer another option. On the other hand, perhaps 20% of all women think as you do (violence is fun).

However, in the gaming community, those numbers are probably reversed. 20% of all female gamers probably feel as LL does, and 80% feel the way you do. Again, that is because gaming appeals to people who enjoy conflict, compition, and violence. So the majority of female gamers are fairly violent women, while the majority of females in general are not.

This bears itself out in posts on these boards all the time. Even in this thread, there is a lot of evidence of violent women in gaming. However, it is also a clear fact that many, many women have no interest in gaming at all.... why?? Perhaps because many, many women are not nearly as intersted in violence as you and I are.

 

[Kichwas]

So *one* woman comes forward and says she doesn't like all the violence and fighting... in the same thread another (me) says I don't mind the violence at all. Now, am I reading you right that because LufiaLilystorm says she doesn't like it, you're willing to generalize that to prove you were "right" all along, and my opinion is dismissed as "some GRRL gamer" attacking you?

Nicole: some people seek only that proof which backs up popular stereotypes.

Reality is a lot more diverse, complex, and politically incorrect.

1. Men and women both like or dislike violence on a personal level. We all pretend non violent men and violent women are both a rare exception; but if you sit down and start counting you'll find it balances out failry well though can be influenced by cultural factors.

2. If the advertising industry and sales are any indicator women like nude and erotic women in their imagry more than men do.
(open a magazine made for men and they used scantily cladd women to sell product, open a magazine for women and they use scantily clad or even nude women to sell product: men only get the nude women if they buy a 'skin mag'. Now go compare novel covers- novels targetted to women are much more erotic in cover art than those targeted to men or both. You'll find this same trend among the art used in nearly every aspect of society.

And it works for sales).

3. Fantasy is by no means a male genre. A good half or more of the authors out there today are women. Start counting names on a store shelf and this becomes clear. Check some fan magazines. See's who's writing in to the editorials. Fairly balanced or even edging in favor of women. See who's submitting short stories to anthology mags... See who shows up at author signings or local book clubs... Another surpise for many here is that in a racially diverse region (such as my own: San Francisco) you'll find a good racial mix at the store buying the books or sitting around at that book club...

Of course some might claim I'm just seeking proof that supports me... but I suspect I've got a lot more of it than the other side of these issues.