You asked~Female gamers

Status
Not open for further replies.
LufiaLillystorm said:
Also, I have a lot of trouble with the books. You can tell they are geared toward male readers, just look at the art.

The art in gaming has always been something that bugged me. I've never seen any trends towards non-violent or violent gaming in either sex (or any other easily generalized trends) but the portrayal of women in game products has always bugged me.

For example, every last female character in Mage Knight Dungeons is clad in little more than butt floss and a few strategic scraps of armor. If I had daughter, I could never imagine myself picking up such a product for her. Our male heroes can be puny weaklings (Raistlin) or tubby layabouts (Bilbo Baggins). Heck, the ugly fighter is a classic D&D stereotype. Yet, female heroes are consistently portrayed as sex objects. It's a stupid double standard, it sends a message better confined to teeny bopper magazines and other pop culture trash, and is a state of mind the gaming industry would do well to leave behind. Admittedly, things are much better than they used to be, but there's still plenty of room for improvement.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Infanticide and Gaming (an educational rant)

I really should be doing other things with my time, but I figured I just have to make my point more clear.

To do so, we need to discuss one of the most violent and unspeakable crimes of all- killing your own children.

Now, with the recent events of the Andrea Yates case, there has been a huge focus on this crime. Interestingly, killing your own children is one of only two crimes that women commit as often as men. The other is shoplifting.

However, even though both genders kill their children at an equal rate, there are plenty of difference in their behavior.


From a recent article on MSNBC:

a study by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children shows that fathers are far more violent. And mothers frequently dispose of the corpses in what researchers call a “womblike” fashion. Bodies are swaddled, submerged in water, or wrapped in plastic. Moreover, the NCMEC study showed that while the victims of maternal killings are almost always found either in or close to the home, fathers will, on average, dispose of the bodies hundreds of miles away. All these behaviors suggest that women associate these murders with themselves, their homes, and their bodies

Read the whole article here:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/723203.asp?0si=-

My point, even when killing their own children, women are more caring, nurturing, and concious of social relationships than men are. By contrast, men are still more violent.

Now lets talk about domestic violence. Although it is true that some women do attack their s.o. (often with knives or other weapons), the vast majority of domestic abusers are male.

If women are just as likely to be violent as men, why is there such a discrepency in instances of physical abuse?

If women are just as prone to violence as men, why are there hundreds of organizations around the world dedicated to eliminating violence AGAINST women. A simiple search of "violence and women" on Google reveals :

http://www.un.org/rights/dpi1772e.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/vawo/
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/vawo/laws/vawa/vawa.htm
http://www.wave-network.org/
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/http://www.feminist.org/911/crisis.html
http://www.jhuccp.org/pr/l11edsum.stm

And that's not even all the ones from the first page. Every one of those sites discuss how to stop men's violence against women, because women are victimized the world over by the violence of men.


By contrast, a search of "men and violence" reveals:

http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/
http://www.menovercomingviolence.org/
http://www.silcom.com/~paladin/madv/

Interestingly, every one of these sites discusses how to stop men's violence against women, too!!

Hmm....

There seems to be an association between men and violence in our world.....


Here's a few other intesting tidbit about women and violence:

Studies from WHO indicate that between 16% and 52% of women world-wide are physically assaulted by an intimate partner at least once in their lives.

Read more here: http://www.ippf.org/resource/gbv/ma98/1.htm

Interestingly, the WHO doesn't even address how many men are attacked by their wives. How many do you suppose there are, in Egypt, China, India, who abuse their husbands and boy friends??

Am I clear so far???

Now, how does this relate to gaming?

To understand that, we need to see gaming as *entertainment.*

Once we do that, we can see that it is not surprising that few girls game.

Few girls watch pro-wrestling too. Few girls watch TnT. Few girls play rugby. Few girls fight in boxing matches. Few girls beat their husbands. Few girls read Conan.

Why???

For the same reason that they bury their children close to the home after murdering them. Gender based psychology.

Now, you can say that that psychology is the result of social constructs and gender bias. And to a large degree it is, but not completely. You can not ignore the inescapable fact that men and women are different on a biological level.

How different??

well, among other things, men have much higher levels of testosterone. And as we all know, testosterone increases violent behavior! In fact, a 1997 study conducted by Georgia State University shows that women who commit violent crimes have high levels of testosterone.

The researchers found that testosterone levels were related both to the violence of the women's crimes and to the aggressive dominance of their behavior in prison. This finding was further supported by assessing how an inmate's age corresponded to her behavior and testosterone levels.


Read the whole article here: http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/3a046.htm

I really can't believe that I have to go through all this to prove that women, ON AVERAGE, are less inclined to violence than men, and therefore less inclined to take up a violent hobby.

Now, if we did a blood test of all female hach-n-slash gamers, I am guessing we'd find that many of them have "high" levels of testosterone. Why???

Because they like to kick people's teeth in.

Now, there are probably plenty of girls who game, and are hack-n-slash players, who do not have high levels of testosterone. How can that be??

Because behavior is the result of many factors. Perhaps through socialization, she has learned to like a violent hobby. perhaps she comes from a violent background, and can easily relate. But it doesn't matter because we are not intersted in the exceptions to the rule.

The biological rule is: Women have lower levels of testosterone, which, among other things (both external and internal) cause them to be less inclined to violence. You can't argue with science.

That rule leads to all sorts of social roles, and gender norms that, today, we say are oppressing women. And indeed, many of our modern social conventions do keep women in a "social role."

But, for one thing, that goes both ways. Men are also constrained by social roles. For another, it is reinforced both by men and women in such an entrenched way that it is an inescapable reality. But after you strip away all the social roles, the cultural norms, the learned behavior, the conforming and obedience, you are left with biological impulses that are the root cause of behavior.

If you don't like it when I say "women are less inclined to violence than men." Then you are simply living in a politically correct dreamland of gender neutral hermaphrodites.

The fact is that men are the more violent and aggressive gender, and have been since we all lived in caves. It is forthat reason, more than any other, that gaming ( a violent hobby) appeals more to men.

All other factors such as artwork, social unease (1 girl and 5 guys at the table:eek: ), gender roles, "geekiness" and all else that keeps women from the gaming table, can be traced back to our innate, violent impulses (or lack thereof).

And it is for that reason that I belive women will never be 50% of the d20 industry. If We are evr to approch numbers like that, we will need a greater focus on role-playing, and less of a focus of combat.
 
Last edited:

That would drive away the existing fanbase, so such a refocus in the hobby would result in little more than a shift in who sits around a table rolling dice and pretending to be someone else.
 

"And it is for that reason that I belive women will never be 50% of the d20 industry. If We are evr to approch numbers like that, we will need a greater focus on role-playing, and less of a focus of combat."



There are plenty of games (Vampire, Ars Magica, etc.) which present such opportunities now, and women do make up a larger percentage of their players. However, those gaes don't attract anywhere near the numbers of total players as does D&D, and I would guess (completely without evidence), that there are more women playing D&D than there are playing any of those other games, in terms of raw numbers, rather than percentages.

If a focus on combat rather than role playing were the only thing keeping women away from gaming, wouldn't storytelling games be dominating the market now?
 

Actually physical abuse by women against their male spuses is much more common than abuse by men against women. But the damage done is less noticable.

http://www.vix.com/men/battery/battery.html


Violence is more of a learned trait than an inbred one.

You'll find the results of all of this vary dramaticly when you leave the western paradigm behind.

And what is going on is not always what it appears to be on the surface nor directly tied in to who's in power. The violent group is not always the dominant one. Often enough it's the one that has no other recourse.

Spend a few years living among the under class in Asia... :D That was an eye opener for me.



If a focus on combat rather than role playing were the only thing keeping women away from gaming, wouldn't storytelling games be dominating the market now?
Agreed here.

I really think it's all as simple as introducing people to it. Most people get into the hobby by way of introduction. If all the men in the hobby today went out and tried to recruit 3 women each and actively avoided recruiting any men I suspect that in a year or two women would outnumber men.

People in western society still mostly socialize with their own gender; despite the so-called sexual revolution. So it's only natural that the hobby spreads mostly to men. Especially considering that it's been started and carried by a group of men that tend to be less 'sexually active' at their 'prime age of interest in the hobby' then the average male (a gross generalization on my part backed up merely by conjecture and no statistics I possess...).
 
Last edited:

BMF said:
Why, pray tell, is it that less than 20% of all gamers are girls??

Would love to post a bunch of lengthy replies, but I leave for a trade show in the morning and I'm sooo not ready. However, I can give you what I believe to be the answer to your question above: maturity and exposure.

The number of girls exposed to gaming in a positive way has increased dramatically over the last 15 years or so. There are HUGE numbers of women not just roleplaying but also attending conventions, running game stores, working at all levels of the game business compared to 20 years ago.

It's got far less to do with violence vs. non-violence, or hacking vs. storytelling than it has to do with how and when young girls *discover* gaming and how positive or negative those experiences are (which is where maturity comes into play).

Hmmm, thinking more about it, I have a LOT more I could say on this topic but it would result in an obscenely long post and I honestly just can't spare the time. Maybe when I get back from the trade show... in my copious free time ;) I can write up something more cogent.

Nicole
 

Many good points have been made here.

The reason I didn't get involved in RPG's until I was 21 was the fact that I wasn't exposed to them until then. My male freinds all grew up with it, but it's not something most teenage and pree-teen girls are exposed to (or maybe I was just really sheltered). So the guys were going to start a group up and they knew I liked to write stories and read so I was asked to join.

Just as a passing note for the record:
viloence: personally for ME I use violence only as a last resort, one of my male gamer freinds plays the same way
illustrations: although being the only girl in the room and seeing some of the pics in some of their books made me quite embarrassed and uncomfortable, it wasn't a deterrant for playing .

The main thing for me is feeling comfortable and being able to trust the group.

It was said before (not sure by who) walking into a new game with 5 guys staring at you and you are "the girl" is akward and embarassing. Feeling equal and like you don't have to prove anything is the best feeling. The new group I game with it's like that. It doesn't matter that I'm a girl, nothing changes (although they said they cleaned up their language a bit for me) and that's why I stay. I didn't feel like I had to 'prove' anything and I was accepted into the fold immideately. I didn't feel like a freak, I just felt like a player.

There IS one other thing that scared me a bit before I actually sat down at a table with the guys, ever since I had heard of gaming (granted it was when I was in college) I had heard 'horror' stories. Stuff that they did (or freinds did) that they were proud of, and felt I needed to know about from their games. Things such as pc's being raped, or raping npc's, or other pc's, things like necrophelia, molestation, and pedofiles, and these guys were my FRIENDS and things like this happened in their GAMES. I was terrified to play as I feared I would have to witness something like that in game.

Personally I game to forget about real life, become someone else, live someone else's life. I play to be the hero I can't be in real life, to have confidence and do things I can't do normally. I want to escape from reality, and like it or not rape, domestic violence, and molestation happen in real life, I DON'T want it in my fantasies. So this was my biggest fear.

More or less I have been spared from these horrors (because I tell people up front I won't play if something like that happens), but the images from one freind about one of his pc's and what he had the pc do will haunt me forever.

So, in a nutshell, I game because I love the art of storytelling, and I love to be able to bust heads in of people that p!55 me off, the fact that I can forget about this world and live in another is appealing to me. The sterotypes (chainmail bikini) and semi-nude pictures do bother me a bit, but not enough to not game (although sometimes they make me uncomfortable.)

For me the main turn-off was guys looking to play out sexual fantasies (or vent sexual frustration) in game.

The one other thing (mentioned previously) is to me at first there seemed to be so many rules and they were confusing. But the guys were patient and didn't make me feel stupid as I learned. (of course I have some learning disabilities so it's not a gender thing). I started with 2ed and mastered that eventually, 3ed is so much easier, but maybe because I already knew 2ed (but, for the record: Champions Hero: Fantasy is EVIL EVIL EVIL)

Had I been given an oportunity in High school I would have started gaming then, but not until college was almost over was I truly introduced to it.

However, I have never even considered myself any kind of normal you can think of (no sterotype has yet been able to describe me :P )my statements are purely my story, not necessarily anyone else's. Eeryone has a different reason why they game, or don't game whether male or female.

Just my 2 copper,
Lady Starhawk
 

There are plenty of games (Vampire, Ars Magica, etc.) which present such opportunities now, and women do make up a larger percentage of their players.

That proves my point.

However, those gaes don't attract anywhere near the numbers of total players as does D&D, and I would guess (completely without evidence), that there are more women playing D&D than there are playing any of those other games, in terms of raw numbers, rather than percentages.

The percentage is important here, not the raw number. THe raw number of players has more to do with the quality of game mechanics and marketing and so on. The base rate for players of d20 is higher than any other game, so any raw number you draw from that will be higher than any comparable number from another game. so, it is the percentage that is important.

If a focus on combat rather than role playing were the only thing keeping women away from gaming, wouldn't storytelling games be dominating the market now?

:sigh: did you read my post???

I didn't say the focus on role-playing was the ONLY thing. I said it was related to the root cause. Yes, if you change that, more women will play. No, it is not the only thing keeping many women from playing.

Is that clear enough??


Violence is more of a learned trait than an inbred one.

I agree. I was going to rant about the peaceful natives of North america who learned violence after white people came, but I had already gone on too long.

And in the end, I covered that point anyway:
after you strip away all the social roles, the cultural norms, the learned behavior, the conforming and obedience, you are left with biological impulses that are the root cause of behavior.

Now I just spent a few minutes reading over your link and, although it seems very convincing, I have a few minor problems with it. For example:

From this page: http://www.vix.com/men/battery/commentary/sniechowski.html
41% of spousal murders involved a female killer;

1. How many of those women were defending themselves against a male attacker?? They don't tell you that do they?

2. The rest of those stats are in line with what I have already cited.
55% of those who kill their children are women. Already noted.
18% of parent murders involved a female killer; This is in line with the 80/20 rule.

15% of sibling murders involved a female killer. This is also in line with the expected 20% of women who kill their siblings.

Furthermore, even your link cannot refute what I have said, rather it says:
The facts are, however, that women initiate violence against men in roughly equal numbers (women 24% and men 27%)

That is ROUGHLY, and in fact its not even that. It is a 27% rate Vs a 24% rate, in favor of men. Which is what I'm talking about. Now, those numbers are much closer than one would expect, but that is probably due to the adgenda of the researchers. If you read through that document, you repeatedly see words and phrases that suggest a "blame the victim" mentality.

I don't disagree that violence by women against their spouses happens, and I'm sure it is under reported. Hell, I know from first hand experience that girls hit their boyfriends. But I disagree completely with the notion that, among the whole world's population, women beat their husbands more than vice verca. Even your eveidence doesn't support that.
 
Last edited:

One question I'd like to ask is how the relationship with gender and violence in real life is related to hack-and-slash gaming. While hack and slash gaming is undoubtedly short on roleplaying, I don't think its really violent.

For me, one of the most important distinguishing characteristics of hack-and-slash gaming is that empathy for your PC's pretend enemies is completely absent from game. I certainly like combat quite a bit in rpg's, but I enjoy min-maxing my character, and trying to move my little guy around in 5' squares in order to maximize that chances the my party wins the fight. Basically, hack-and-slash reduces the complex social aspects of an rpg to a numbers game. I like strategy games, I used to like building magic decks, and I like programming, so this appeals to me. For me, hack-and-slash is not at all violent, because the enemies are purposely dehumanized to allow for this style of play.

If more detailed interaction with NPC's is necessary, then its much more difficult to play hack and slash. If see that the brigand is just trying to feed his children, or the lowly goblin weeps for his fallen battle brothers, then I don't enjoy killing them at all. It makes me feel like my PC, and myself by extension, is a bad person, and I will be much more loathe to commit violent acts. However, if I do make the decision kill an NPC, it feels much more violent because I have anthropomorphized the set of numers.

In summary, when I am hack-and-slashing, I don't feel like I am playing a violent game, I feel like I am playing a math game. I imagine that this holds true for many gamers, so I question if women being turned off by hack-and-slash roleplaying has anything to do with attitudes toward violence. It may have more to do with women, either because of biology or culture, having less of a tendancy to enjoy math.
 

Interesting comments, Zerovoid.

I think you are talking about the same thing, just differently. I know you see the game as a math game. But do you also see it as competitive?? Do you feel a need to "win" encounters??

If you answer "yes," it is probably due in part to your gender.

Would you ever consider letting your character get captured, just to avoid another bout of senseless dice rolling, conflict and "bloodshed."

If you answer "no," again I say it has to do, in part, with your desire to dominate, lead, and force your will on others (male traits).

I don't think girls have a problem with the math. I think they have a problem with the frequent and "senseless" need for combat. Which, by the way is exactly what the person who started this thread said.
 
Last edited:

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top