you drew the short end of the stick

[FreeTheSlaves]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=129261

Without reading the linked thread this poll and discussion is near meaningless. This is why I said earlier that both the above were going to follow the "crooked" line of discussion.

 

[Crothian]

Uh... I'm not getting it. Why would anyone even make this suggestion again? What purpose does it serve to give someone the shaft so blatantly?

I mean, honestly, I probably would if there were a good reason. Heck, with rolling your stats, you end up that way half the time anyway. But I still would have to wonder what the point is.

Sometimes the point is not that important. It is a just a question. But I did include the "This is stupid" option for people who might think so.

 

[Coredump]

Uh... I'm not getting it. Why would anyone even make this suggestion again? What purpose does it serve to give someone the shaft so blatantly?

Because no one really did say that. Crothian misrepresented what was actually said.

The *true* assertion was that an assigned array 16,15,14,13,12,11 would be better than 25pt buy, but could play alongside of it with little difference.

Not quite the same assertion is it?

 

[Crothian]

Because no one really did say that. Crothian misrepresented what was actually said.

The *true* assertion was that an assigned array 16,15,14,13,12,11 would be better than 25pt buy, but could play alongside of it with little difference.

Not quite the same assertion is it?

wow, would let it drop already? Your like a broken record.

 

[Coredump]

You know, if you didn't like the question you don't have to participate in the thread. :/

That is weak. You made a statement, the statement was wrong and misleading, and now you say I didn't have to participate.
True, but you didn't have to make misleading statements.

 

[Crothian]

That is weak. You made a statement, the statement was wrong and misleading, and now you say I didn't have to participate.
True, but you didn't have to make misleading statements.

No, it is not weak. I am not misleading anyone. I changed the question. If you don't like that, you can go elsewhere.

 

[Coredump]

Yes, folks, it makes a difference.

Wulf, are you even looking at these numbers???

So a fighter with
Str 16, Con 15, Dex 14, Wis 13, Int 12, Cha 11

Is going to be *25%* more effective than one that has
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Wis 10, Int 9, Cha 8

Really? 25% more?? Even though they have the same hit points, the same AC, same damage, etc.?
Granted, the extra +1 wil save may come in handy a few times a year (how often does a fighter miss a wil save by exactly 1?), and the skill points and charisma will make him more fun to play when not in combat, But a 25% more effective fighter?? You have got to be kidding.

And *that* is Teckniks point. This 'high powered' array doesn't make them any more powerful in their specialty. It just makes them more well rounded and fun to play when not in their 'specialty'.

Not as big of a difference as it makes to a character.

You were the one that brought it up. You tried to make it sound like a big deal if the enemy got the same kind of boost. The *only* think Tecknik is really doing is boosting the *LOWER 3* stats. I could probably do that to all monsters in the campaign, and hardly notice any change at all.

But even so, it makes a difference. Total modifiers first example, +5. Total modifiers second example, +9. In a "d20 based system"-- such as, say, the d20 system-- you just can't ignore that disparity.

You can if you know where those modifyers are being applied.
Example. two fighters get a magic item. One gets a +6 to str. one gets a +6 to charisma. Are they equally effective? Nope. Because *where* those bonuses go is even more important than what they go on.
Example two. One figher gets +4 Str, and +2 Con, other fighter gets +6 Cha and +6 Int.
WOAH! Way out of balance.... second one got double the bonus of the first!!!
Except the first will still be a more effective fighter
Again, what Tecknik is trying to do is *not* increase the 'important' stats, and will increase the 'dump' stats.

You can argue that it doesn't matter, but you're arguing against statistical probabilities, pure and simple. It's ridiculous. You may feel that 2+2 should equal 5 but that doesn't make it so.

Nice straw man. But the point is the using 'statistics' they are about equal, since the majority of rolls they statistically make will be statistically the same, since they have the same modifyers.

So he's wrong on the *concept* as well as an examination of the specifics.

Lets try the 'concept' again. The 'concept' is that raising the *lowest 3* stats a few points doesn't change the balance much. You challenged this by bringing up Goblins. By raising the Goblin Cha, Int, Wis a few points, there is almost no change in encounter difficulty, thus refuting your point.

 

[Coredump]

No, it is not weak. I am not misleading anyone. I changed the question. If you don't like that, you can go elsewhere.

Bull. You are now making things up.

You stated:

So, in another thread a poster made what he callsa bold claim ( and I agree) that 36 point buy and 25 point buy could be played in the same campaign without much difference

That statement is *wrong*. By sayng this thread is your sandbox and I can leave is a weak response. Why not explain why you made an incorrect statement in the opening post?

Yes you 'changed' the question. But then you try to use the results of that question to support a *different* claim. This poll has nothing to do with what Tecknik asserted, despite the fact that you claim a correlation.

 

[Coredump]

wow, would let it drop already? Your like a broken record.

He asked a question, I answered it. I am sorry it needs to be answered so often. It is difficult to correct misleading statements.

And speaking of 'broken record' eventhough it is plainly evidenced that you made an incorrect statement, you keep denying it.... over and over....

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Wulf, are you even looking at these numbers???

So a fighter with
Str 16, Con 15, Dex 14, Wis 13, Int 12, Cha 11

Is going to be *25%* more effective than one that has
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Wis 10, Int 9, Cha 8

Really? 25% more?? Even though they have the same hit points, the same AC, same damage, etc.?
Granted, the extra +1 wil save may come in handy a few times a year (how often does a fighter miss a wil save by exactly 1?), and the skill points and charisma will make him more fun to play when not in combat, But a 25% more effective fighter?? You have got to be kidding.

Yes, I would say it would be approximately 25% better to have a few skill points, to have a positive bonus to will saves, spot and listen. That's my opinion, but then Will saves, spots and listens are always a fighter's weak points - if they really suck then you are going to be taken advantage of by any enemy worth his salt.