you drew the short end of the stick

[FreeTheSlaves]

When you look at the elite default array it actually has the immediate power of only a 22pt buy character, the 15 & 13 have 'dead' points. Does this make the default array equivalent to 22pt buy? I say no.

I say no because the delayed gratification & even a difference of 1 is significant.

Aproximately half of character concepts & classes require multiple better than average stats and the improving of many as you level up. Waiting until 8th level (26 odd sessions) for gratification instead of 4th level (10 sessions) does count for something. This is not even "penis envy" but simply the fact that dramatic improvement is fun.

I have witnessed too often the difference between failure and success being measured by a difference of 1*. For any single die roll the +1 is marginal but over 6 months of gaming that +1 comes into play countless times. There is a reason why every frontline warrior takes weapon focus & I actively encourage this.

*(Last night my character saved a companion from death with a DC 15 heal check that was only made with the help of a companion aiding another.)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Its a simplistic example but it shows my point.

It's a stupid example.

It's not by accident that you chose to showcase a wizard. Some folks might call that a strawman.

Try it again with a fighter, ranger, druid, paladin, bard, cleric, rogue, or any multiclass character who relies on more than one stat.

Even in your example, "a little more hp" is deceptive. For a wizard, a bonus differential of +1 is at least a 25% increase in hit points.

You're welcome to continue arguing that it's possible to play a sub-par character, and certainly that it can even be fun to play a sub-par character, and I wouldn't disagree with you-- but ability scores have MEANING that is inextricably entwined in the mechanics of the d20 system, at multiple layers of play.

(And comparing these ability scores to the arrays of D&D editions from years past is irrelevant. The scale of modifiers is completely different.)

And if you don't think that matters, why not let your DM crank all his monsters up with your array and see what happens. It's amazing what goblins can do with a couple of 15's and a 17 instead of the standard array: 20% less likely to hit them, 20% more likely they'll hit with their javelins, 25% increase in damage with a javelin, 20% increase in hit points...

 

[Coredump]

it wasn't skewed, it was the question I wanted to ask. It was inspired by a post you made, but in the end more people use point buy then arrays so I made the question appeal to more to more people. Besides, with the landslide of votes that say no, I doubt there would be that big of change.

I think the 'skewed' feel is because the 'question you wanted to ask' is not the same as the topic that was being (previously) discussed. And to assert that it is, is being disengenuous. The 'landslide of votes' is falsely attributed to what Technik has been saying.


The poll is a very straight forward question

Would you play the 25 point buy character in a game of 36 point buy characters?

I am amazed that it recieved even 25% yes. If that question was all that was known about the underlying discussion, I would have likely said no also.

But then you make the assertion that

So, in another thread a poster made what he calls a bold claim ( and I agree) that 36 point buy and 25 point buy could be played in the same campaign without much difference. (snip) So, would you play a 25 point buy character in a game of 36 point buy characters?

Two items.

First, that is very different than the poll question. The poll question is 'would you do it?' The statement that 'a poster' made was that they 'could be played with not much difference'. If that is the question you wanted answered, than that is what you should have asked. I think there isn't too much difference, but I wouldn't (normally) do it because I don't want the difference, regardless of how little, if I can avoid it. (and depending on character concept, yadda yadda...)

Second, that is NOT what the 'other poster' said. It is barely close
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=129261 (post 29)
(Earlier, he defined the array as 16,15,14,13,12,11 )

I'd say due to the arrangement, the 36 pt array is equal to a 30 point buy, and further that it could be played side-by-side a 25 point buy character without anyone feeling signficantly over/undershadowed. [/bold claim]

This is *very* different than just comparing 36pt and 25pt, And even further from 'would you do it'? Yes, trying to draw a compaison (which you clearly try) should be considered 'skewed'


In hind sight, Tecknik should have made his first post along the lines of
"I was 'a poster'. This poll, and the accomplanying paraphrase, have nothing to do with what I actually said, and should not be treated as such. "
And left it at that. But hindsight is easy....

 

[Crothian]

You know, if you didn't like the question you don't have to participate in the thread. :/

 

[Ds Da Man]

This whole arguement boils down to only what type of campaign your playing. Lot's o' roleplaying (lesser is fine), lots o' roll-playing (higher is better). I can't see a DM throwing characters against high-powered monsters, that only attack, and giving a lesser point-buy.

My opinion, though not worth much!

 

[Crothian]

This whole arguement boils down to only what type of campaign your playing. Lot's o' roleplaying (lesser is fine), lots o' roll-playing (higher is better). I can't see a DM throwing characters against high-powered monsters, that only attack, and giving a lesser point-buy.

My opinion, though not worth much!

its worth as much as any one else's opinion here.

 

[Coredump]

You're welcome to continue arguing that it's possible to play a sub-par character, and certainly that it can even be fun to play a sub-par character, and I wouldn't disagree with you-- but ability scores have MEANING that is inextricably entwined in the mechanics of the d20 system, at multiple layers of play.

Sure, but how 'sub par' is
16,14,14,10,9,8

When compared to

16,15,14,13,12,11


Really.... Will it make the fighter that much deadlier? Will it make the rogue that much more useful? Will it have anything but a minimal impact on the 'power' of the game. Of course, the fighter might have a couple more skill points, the rogue maybe a bit more charisma.... but so what? *That* is the point he has been trying to make.

And if you don't think that matters, why not let your DM crank all his monsters up with your array and see what happens.

Sure, the next NPC bad guy that was going to get 16,14,14,10,9,8 will now get 16,15,14,13,12,11. And you think that will make a big difference?

It's amazing what goblins can do with a couple of 15's and a 17 instead of the standard array: 20% less likely to hit them, 20% more likely they'll hit with their javelins, 25% increase in damage with a javelin, 20% increase in hit points...

Apples and Oranges, the standard array is non optimized 15pt buy.
But even using the *concept* that Tecknik is advising, the only thing it would really do is up the Goblins charisma,wisdom, and intelligence. Probably wont affect much....

 

[Coredump]

How often? Every time... and the gap gets wider at 4th level. And again at 8th level. And again at 12th level. And again at 16th level. And again at 20th level...

You realize this is totally wrong don't you?

There is NO difference at first, there is a slight advantage (+1) at 4th level. But that overall advantage doesn't change until 12th level, and again at 20th level.

And that is only if they chose to up 5 different stats. (unlikely)

 

[tarchon]

16,15,14,13,12,11

16,14,14,10,9,8

I've certainly seen differences like that in random generation, and it wasn't a big problem.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Really.... Will it make the fighter that much deadlier? Will it make the rogue that much more useful? Will it have anything but a minimal impact on the 'power' of the game.

Yes, folks, it makes a difference.

If WOTC's next splatbook featured a longsword that did d10 damage instead of d8 (a 25% improvement) you'd hear folks scream bloody murder that it wasn't balanced.

Sure, the next NPC bad guy that was going to get 16,14,14,10,9,8 will now get 16,15,14,13,12,11. And you think that will make a big difference?

Not as big of a difference as it makes to a character. Remember, we're talking about the aggregate, average effect over a long period of time. A single NPC that walks on and off the stage in a single encounter doesn't get the same benefit from these increases as a character does.

But even so, it makes a difference. Total modifiers first example, +5. Total modifiers second example, +9. In a "d20 based system"-- such as, say, the d20 system-- you just can't ignore that disparity.

You can argue that it doesn't matter, but you're arguing against statistical probabilities, pure and simple. It's ridiculous. You may feel that 2+2 should equal 5 but that doesn't make it so.

Apples and Oranges, the standard array is non optimized 15pt buy.
But even using the *concept* that Tecknik is advising, the only thing it would really do is up the Goblins charisma,wisdom, and intelligence. Probably wont affect much....

So he's wrong on the *concept* as well as an examination of the specifics.