Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Technik4 said:
How often? Every time... and the gap gets wider at 4th level. And again at 8th level. And again at 12th level. And again at 16th level. And again at 20th level...
you drew the short end of the stick
- Thread starter Crothian
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How often? Every time... and the gap gets wider at 4th level. And again at 8th level. And again at 12th level. And again at 16th level. And again at 20th level...
twofalls
DM Beadle
(Edit: In reading this over I sound kinda heated, I don't wish to offend anyone nor was that my intent.)
I'm not really understanding the point of this thread. Who, as a GM actively participating in this thread would say no if a player came up to him and said, "Um, pardon me, but I'd rather play 25 pts than 34. I'd really like to role-play the physically and mentally inferior sidekick for a change."? Who has actually experienced this? I've been gaming for 27 years, and it's not ever happened once to me.
That being said, I've now run 3 D&D campaigns using the 3.0 rules and every one of them was a 28 pt buy game (pg. 20 DMG 3.0). This gives powerful stats in my opinion, of heroic levels but without leaving them supermen. I've dispensed with rolling stats because it makes otherwise honest folk dishonest, and I just don't feel at this point in my life that I really want to deal with it. The rule in my groups has always been that no unwitnessed die roll counts. That's not because I expect cheating, it's because I once caught someone cheating and this system is fair to everyone involved... heck if ya want to cheat you still could by upping your modifiers in your head. Now with that in mind if I had folks generate stats by rolling dice then gamers who rolled poorly would be stuck, while gamers who rolled well would be pleased. I'd rather all my friends were pleased when starting a game. <Okay, part of this was a bit off topic, sorry about that.>
At any rate, my experience with role-playing is that folks enjoy it because it allows them to be someone else and do things they can't otherwise do in RL. They want to be faster, stronger, younger, magical, whatever and participate in a story being this new thing. I've yet to meet a fellah/gal who said, "No... I want to be less. I'll play the quadriplegic who suffers from downs syndrome". Now I've noted that a couple of posters have said that yes, they'd choose less. If playing a character that has fewer points then the rest of the group gives anyone a sense of moral superiority in some silly fashion, then kudos to him/her, so long as the attitude is kept locked up tight inside that player and doesn't manifest in the game. What a bunch of useless (and potentially game damaging) garbage. I can't think of any other reason at this point why a player would accept a handicap that doesn't offer a compensating benefit at the start of an rpg game. And somehow I just have the feeling that someone is going to post after this, "Because its a role-playing concept thing and you are just being insensitive to method acting players". To them I'd say that I graduated from an arts school and have two retired professional actors in my games, and call their BS.
I'm not really understanding the point of this thread. Who, as a GM actively participating in this thread would say no if a player came up to him and said, "Um, pardon me, but I'd rather play 25 pts than 34. I'd really like to role-play the physically and mentally inferior sidekick for a change."? Who has actually experienced this? I've been gaming for 27 years, and it's not ever happened once to me.
That being said, I've now run 3 D&D campaigns using the 3.0 rules and every one of them was a 28 pt buy game (pg. 20 DMG 3.0). This gives powerful stats in my opinion, of heroic levels but without leaving them supermen. I've dispensed with rolling stats because it makes otherwise honest folk dishonest, and I just don't feel at this point in my life that I really want to deal with it. The rule in my groups has always been that no unwitnessed die roll counts. That's not because I expect cheating, it's because I once caught someone cheating and this system is fair to everyone involved... heck if ya want to cheat you still could by upping your modifiers in your head. Now with that in mind if I had folks generate stats by rolling dice then gamers who rolled poorly would be stuck, while gamers who rolled well would be pleased. I'd rather all my friends were pleased when starting a game. <Okay, part of this was a bit off topic, sorry about that.>
At any rate, my experience with role-playing is that folks enjoy it because it allows them to be someone else and do things they can't otherwise do in RL. They want to be faster, stronger, younger, magical, whatever and participate in a story being this new thing. I've yet to meet a fellah/gal who said, "No... I want to be less. I'll play the quadriplegic who suffers from downs syndrome". Now I've noted that a couple of posters have said that yes, they'd choose less. If playing a character that has fewer points then the rest of the group gives anyone a sense of moral superiority in some silly fashion, then kudos to him/her, so long as the attitude is kept locked up tight inside that player and doesn't manifest in the game. What a bunch of useless (and potentially game damaging) garbage. I can't think of any other reason at this point why a player would accept a handicap that doesn't offer a compensating benefit at the start of an rpg game. And somehow I just have the feeling that someone is going to post after this, "Because its a role-playing concept thing and you are just being insensitive to method acting players". To them I'd say that I graduated from an arts school and have two retired professional actors in my games, and call their BS.
Crothian
First Post
twofalls said:
You are reading way too much into things here. This has nothing to do with wanting to play lesser character, but willing to play lesser characters. All it is is a simple question of would you do this, an experiment to see what the answers would be if theis really happened to you.
Crothian
First Post
twofalls said:Oh...
<Kicks soapbox under the table.>
Very well... lets just forget I passed by.
no big deal, it was a good soapbox rant. and I have had characters tell me they want to play weaker characters then acertain point buy or dice rolls allows. Heck, I've done it myself.
Every time what? Those ability mods are equal. The gap begins at 4th, but see below.
Really? So if you had all odd stats you would raise each of those abilities at your ability increase. Somehow, I disbelieve that is the consensus.
Wizard -1st level 17, 15, 15, 11, 11, 9 [36 pt buy]
Str 11
Con 15
Dex 15
Int 17
Wis 11
Cha 9
Wizard -1st level 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8 [26 pt buy]
Str 10
Con 14
Dex 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8
So at 4th level the 36 pt buy has an 18 Int vice a 17 from the 26 pt buy, all other stats barring esoteric feat choice are equal. At 8th level the 26 pt buy wizard catches up to the 18 Int, and you're saying the other wizard chooses...what? Hp? AC/Init? Fine, the 36 pt buy character has a little more hp or a little more AC/Int (or whatever you chose to put that point in). 12th the 26 pt buy puts it in Int, 19. Your character does what? Matches pace?
Its a simplistic example but it shows my point. If you choose to round out your ability scores, you will generally have a weaker specialist role than someone else, even if they are 10 pts less than you on the point buy scale. Since you now have differing power levels, it becomes even more muddled whether one is 'demonstrably weaker' than the other.
Point-Buy is not perfect and not the end-all be-all when it comes to Balance.
Having played since 1978, before point buys (and when I had to walk uphill both ways to and from the game store past the ravenous hordes of giant ninja alligators through the desert's vast snowdrifts)...
I don't see any real difference between playing with the disparity of the point buy and being in a campaign where you just rolled poorly during character generation.
My second campaign ever, my PC didn't have a stat over 13. I still had blast.
I don't see any real difference between playing with the disparity of the point buy and being in a campaign where you just rolled poorly during character generation.
My second campaign ever, my PC didn't have a stat over 13. I still had blast.
Ogre Mage
Hero
No one would waste points with all odd stats like this using 36 PB. They would only do so if they were forced to play with it as a 36 pt. array.Technik4 said:
A far more likely scenario would be Wizard -1st level 18, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10 [36 PB]
This brings a total stat modifier of +9, much better than the +6 above.
Thanks, ogre. I did realize that its an ill-wrought array, but you could certainly get those scores by rolling (or some other technique). Someone could even claim that they got the short stick if he calculated everyone's rolls and discovered that he had only 26 points while you had 36 points, according to point buy. And man, that just isn't fair. Who wants to be demonstrably weaker than everyone else in the party!?
Technik
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