You nerf Haste... what now?

[LokiDR]

Natural Sonic resistance is rare however Spells which protect you from Sonic are not... lvl 1 24 hours of 5 points.

The High Fort save of nearly every creture in the game is aggravating... first you have to cast Enervate on the foe before anything stands a chance of taking them out.

I'm really surprised that more of you don't have mid level fighters doing a lot more damage than you do... I'll have to chart it out and see.

Mid level fighters only really have HP. I have failed to see them dish it out. 20th level fighters may be able to dish out 100 in a round, but that is when the evoker, like Selune, are doing meteor swarms. At 7-13th levels, I haven't seen a fighter compete with a dedicated blast mage. Even if they can, they need his help for it.

I would watch those enervates, if I were you. Channeling negative energy is an evil action.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Re: You gotta be kidding

Don't let Limper kid ya. His wizard is PLENTY potent with or without haste. The guy's spell DCs are insanely high. Most of the "bad guys" have to roll a twenty to hit them. He has fought and fireballed many a crowd of goblinoids. But the real kicker is, the session before he started this bitching, his invisible flying wizard single handedly killed two cloud giants and got three more to retreat (they could do nothing against their invisible foe). The whining is truly unnecessary.
Limper finds and exploits broken rules like a munchkin on crack--always has. And he always gets pissed when I nerf them. He's gotten away with all kinds of stuff in my game (for example, a 2E monk with 16 attacks per round--when I stupidly ruled that a haste effect stacked with his speed maneuver, he cleared an entire ship of crew in a single round with his 32 attacks. There are many more similar stories). In this particular case, he's whining and I haven't even nerfed the spell yet. Though, after seeing this thread, I'm more convinced than ever that is needs it. Hopefully they'll fix it in the new edition.
MtbDM

Well I don't know Limper's playing habits and it's not really the point anyway. You (and many others) pointed out that a mage could be devastating without haste...

... a spell supposedly so useful that no sane wizards wouldn't take...

... but they're still laying armies to waste without it...

Why would haste need nerfing again?

It is one damn useful spell. My wizard has it on his spell list and loves it. It is used each time we fight. But so are Polymorph other, invisibility and Dimension Door, given time.

I think haste is fine as it is.

 

[Victim]

As if characters wouldn't "power game" themselves. Do you believe the evoker thinks to himself "You know, I've been fighting demons for a couple months now, and they keep absorbing my spells even when I breach their general resistance to magic. Maybe I should research some new spells to breach their defenses, or find a way to modify my old ones. Nah, that would lack style. I'll stick to using fire spells since I like fire, even though fiends never take full effect from them."

I don't see where these 10-15 guys that wizards are blasting all at once are coming from either. In my experience, fights with more than 5 or so enemies tend to be rather rare. Sometimes when there are tons of guys, they aren't so stupid as to all stand within a 20 ft radius either.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Natural Sonic resistance is rare however Spells which protect you from Sonic are not... lvl 1 24 hours of 5 points.

The High Fort save of nearly every creture in the game is aggravating... first you have to cast Enervate on the foe before anything stands a chance of taking them out.

I'm really surprised that more of you don't have mid level fighters doing a lot more damage than you do... I'll have to chart it out and see.

That's why you mix i will save spells. Hold monster ends a giants and every other big monsters day handily. Use the fort save against quick looking things, and or arcane looking spellcaster types. Sure dragons etc rock at everything, but you handle most enocutners with a good applicaiton og these 4 schools transmutaion, necromancy(fort save), and illusion, enchantment(will save). Damage spells just suck in comparison.

 

[LokiDR]

As if characters wouldn't "power game" themselves. Do you believe the evoker thinks to himself "You know, I've been fighting demons for a couple months now, and they keep absorbing my spells even when I breach their general resistance to magic. Maybe I should research some new spells to breach their defenses, or find a way to modify my old ones. Nah, that would lack style. I'll stick to using fire spells since I like fire, even though fiends never take full effect from them."

I don't see where these 10-15 guys that wizards are blasting all at once are coming from either. In my experience, fights with more than 5 or so enemies tend to be rather rare. Sometimes when there are tons of guys, they aren't so stupid as to all stand within a 20 ft radius either.

I am not talking about the fire mage vs. fiendish critters. I am talking about enemies in general, sonic is your best option. If the option is that obvious from a rules perspective, I think this is lame. This is purely a metagame concern though, not as though a mage in the game says "I want to penetrate spell resistance, I think I will take a feat." Like I said, not a big deal.

And I do see 10-15 creatures being used against parties. At least as many creatures have a horde mentality as focus on single strong creatures. My current favorite is a band of hobgoblins on griffins, with all the mounted feats and lances. 15 of them killed half the crew of the airship in my game.

 

[maddman75]

Limper, I don't think you have ever seen the terifying sight of a mage who really wants to destroy armies. I have a 13th level character who wanders around with AC 50+, 20 natural armor, dex 36+, always flying and always invisible. If it wasn't for the archer cleric we call the staple gun I would feel broken .

Start by persistan spell. Then use pro evil, shield, and mage armor. Later, you can use it on fly and improved invis. Next, make sure you have spell focus and GSF in evoke or transmutation. Spell penetration helps too. Take a PrC like Incantantrix, and take spells like disintigrate, poly other, invis, prismatic eye (MoF) for the instant kills. Empowered fireballs, magic missles, and firebrands make things die very quickly. If they are fighter types, try dominate person or charm monster. After some prep spells, they won't be able to hit you but you can take them out of the combat in one spell.

It is only because I have done this that I believe mages are obscene. I have seen little in the way of fighters to compete without a lot of help from their spellcaster friends. If you give them the help, they you should get credit for the victory.

The alternative to this is to cut out as much of this powergaming as you can. If the fight isn't the most important part of the adventure, perhaps you can get by with other interesting contributions that the fighters can't.

Excellent reasons to disallow Persistant Spell, Greater Spell Focus, and everything from FR .

Mages are quite powerful enough without all this nonsense.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Oh, please.

Improved invisibility, non-detection, fly, haste, and polymorph self are all straight out of the core books, as are artillery spells and save-or-die spells, and they've got everything you need. Moreover, IIRC, Persistent Spell is in T&B as well.

Mages are just powerful, period. They were capable of destroying armies in 1e, 2e, and now 3e. The key is to have your own mage on hand capable of detecting and whomping the heck out of the opposing mage, or a decent cleric who can buff himself and the fighters to heck and go after the offending mage AND his compatriots.

 

[Mortaneus]

The key is to have your own mage on hand capable of detecting and whomping the heck out of the opposing mage, or a decent cleric who can buff himself and the fighters to heck and go after the offending mage AND his compatriots.

I prefer a dex-monster monk with an insane AC. They'll tear across the battlefield in a single charge, tumble their way past the party, and smash the mage with a high DC stunning attack. Combined with sandles of the tiger's leap and the flying kick feat from OA, they stand a pretty good chance of killing the mage too.

 

[Henry]

Really? I have never noticed that. Wow, persistent improved invis, that's perhaps the best 7th level spell I heard of.

8th level, actually. 4th level Improved Invis. + 4 levels from persistent Spell = 8th level spell. Still darned good.

 

[LokiDR]

8th level, actually. 4th level Improved Invis. + 4 levels from persistent Spell = 8th level spell. Still darned good.

Unless you have 7 levels of Incantantrix This whole discussion only really belongs in a power game, and FR is the most popular one out there in general.

I don't wonder what the cleric will lose when he looks over his sheet and applies the FAQ ruling. This is a good reason not to play a muchkin game.