D&D 5E You Roll Low, Nothing Happens. Can this/should this be changed?

[Brute]

Really appreciate the responses guys and special thanks to Paraxis.

I think at this stage in my gaming career I'm starting to look for increased player agency, in which everything the player does at the table has some impact on the story (and not just on resource management). As D&D 5e is my favourite system, I will look to see if there's a few tweaks (as per suggestions in this thread) to help the game fit my table better, and if not I will look at other systems.

Any other suggestions for making "whiffing" a little more interesting at the table, please weigh in! Otherwise thanks again guys.

 

[GMMichael]

The problem is that nothing actually occurs mechanically (the enemy loses HP or takes on a status affect) and crucially, nothing interesting can really happen narratively (unlike say, with the optional Fumble roll in which case something big can happen)

I think I've got an ok handle on low rolls in the "exploration" area of the game, but I'm having difficulty with low rolls in combat. Thoughts?

A low attack roll, and a "miss," is not a failure nor a non-event. It's a successful defense on the part of the defender. It takes two to tango. If the lack of damage is boring, make the successful defense exciting.

You can bend the bar a bit, like Dungeon World (I think), and say that a miss/failure isn't such: a low roll is actually a success with unwanted or unintended results.

 

[Rune]

I think at this stage in my gaming career I'm starting to look for increased player agency, in which everything the player does at the table has some impact on the story (and not just on resource management).

Just based on this, I'm going to highly recommend that you check out Dungeon World. It feels a lot like old-school D&D, but runs on an entirely different kind of chassis, which does basically everything you're looking for.

Almost everything the DM does in game is a response to a player's roll--so much so that there is no initiative; if a monster deals damage to them, it's because they made a poor attack that opened up their defenses (as one example).

Add to this a trinary value for all resolution rolls (failure/partial success/complete success) and many different possible complications that can arise and you've got a game that moves in unexpected directions, but always forward.

As D&D 5e is my favourite system, I will look to see if there's a few tweaks (as per suggestions in this thread) to help the game fit my table better, and if not I will look at other systems.

Any other suggestions for making "whiffing" a little more interesting at the table, please weigh in! Otherwise thanks again guys.

Okay. To apply this stuff to D&D, first, split the roll results up into three categories: failure by 5 or more equaling complete failure, any other failure being partial success, and everything else being complete success.

•For complete failures, complicate the plot in some related way. If you're still giving opponents turns in an initiative cycle, this can't result in an attack, but dropped weapons, reinforcements, broken lockpicks, slips that result in disadvantage on the next roll, and so on are all fair game.

•For partial success, I'd give the roller the option: either take a success that also comes with an as-yet-undetermined complication, or take the failure with no extraordinary complication.

•Success gives the roller what s/he wanted to accomplish.

A good way to think about all of this is to stop looking as the die roll as a "yes/no" check and start thinking of it as a check for control in a situation. Higher rolls mean more control is exerted; lower rolls mean less is.

 

[Ratskinner]

Just to echo what [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] said above. It really sounds like you're looking for Dungeon World. Every roll drives or directs the story forward. In addition to what he mentione3d about the trinary result categories, DW rolls are triggered by players responses to the narrative players do not make a Hack and Slash roll to attack something. Instead, they describe what the character does, and the DM asks for a roll when the narrative calls for it. I know that doesn't sound like much, but when I've played DW and that rule isn't followed it kinda breaks down. So, you'd need to figure out what triggers there are for rolls in 5e.

 

[Redthistle]

Have the player who missed describe why it happened.

 

[Nebulous]

A low attack roll, and a "miss," is not a failure nor a non-event. It's a successful defense on the part of the defender. It takes two to tango. If the lack of damage is boring, make the successful defense exciting.

You can bend the bar a bit, like Dungeon World (I think), and say that a miss/failure isn't such: a low roll is actually a success with unwanted or unintended results.

I was about to suggest Dungeon World to the OP. It has a really great way of mitigating success and failure, but it might be a little tricky to work into 5e. Maybe not, I haven't looked at the rules in a while and only played it for 1 session, but I really liked it.

 

[Nebulous]

Just to echo what [MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] said above. It really sounds like you're looking for Dungeon World. Every roll drives or directs the story forward. In addition to what he mentione3d about the trinary result categories, DW rolls are triggered by players responses to the narrative players do not make a Hack and Slash roll to attack something. Instead, they describe what the character does, and the DM asks for a roll when the narrative calls for it. I know that doesn't sound like much, but when I've played DW and that rule isn't followed it kinda breaks down. So, you'd need to figure out what triggers there are for rolls in 5e.

Yeah, this exactly. I'd say the OP needs to try Dungeon World, it does exactly what I think he's looking for. BUT...5e is a stronger game overall. You'd need to find a way to blend the two game styles. Hell, I like this idea so much i'm going to take a closer look at the DW pdf again. I'll share anything I find here.

 

[Nellisir]

The argument against fumble rules is that, in short, PCs roll a lot more often than NPCs, so they will accumulate more penalties (be they self-inflicted damage, permanent wounds, or dropped weapons) than their opponents, particularly over the course of a campaign.

One significant way to increase player involvement (if not necessarily player agency), however, is to adopt the "players roll all the dice" rule. In this scenario, instead of a monster (the DM) rolling to hit, the player rolls a defense check against a static number. Their defense roll is 1d20+AC bonus; the monster's attack number is 11+attack bonus. The same method is used when a monster has to save vs a spell or effect; the player rolls a "spell attack" versus a static defense number (11+attribute modifer). If the monster gets advantage on an attack, the player instead takes disadvantage on the defense. And so forth.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

 

[Nebulous]

Hack and Slash
When you attack an enemy in melee, roll+Str. ✴On a 10+, you deal
your damage to the enemy and avoid their attack. At your option,
you may choose to do +1d6 damage but expose yourself to the
enemy’s attack. ✴On a 7–9, you deal your damage to the enemy and
the enemy makes an attack against you.

Hack and slash is for attacking a prepared enemy plain and simple. If
the enemy isn’t prepared for your attack—if they don’t know you’re
there or they’re restrained and helpless—then that’s not hack and
slash. You just deal your damage or murder them outright, depending
on the situation. Nasty stuff.

The enemy’s counterattack can be any GM move made directly
with that creature. A goblin might just attack you back, or they might
jam a poisoned needle into your veins. Life’s tough, isn’t it?
Note that an “attack” is some action that a player undertakes that
has a chance of causing physical harm to someone else. Attacking
a dragon with inch-thick metal scales full of magical energy using
a typical sword is like swinging a meat cleaver at a tank: it just isn’t
going to cause any harm, so hack and slash doesn’t apply. Note that
circumstances can change that: if you’re in a position to stab the
dragon on its soft underbelly (good luck with getting there) it could
hurt, so it’s an attack.

If the action that triggers the move could reasonably hurt multiple
targets roll once and apply damage to each target (they each get
their armor).

Some attacks may have additional effects depending on the
triggering action, the circumstances, or the weapons involved. An
attack could also knock someone down, restrain them, or leave a
big bloody splatter.

 

[Nebulous]

Making Moves
The most basic unit of rules in Dungeon World is the move. A move
looks like this:

When you attack an enemy in melee, roll+Str. ✴On a 10+, you
deal your damage to the enemy and avoid their attack. At your
option, you may choose to do +1d6 damage but expose yourself to
the enemy’s attack. ✴On a 7–9, you deal your damage to the enemy
and the enemy makes an attack against you.

Moves are rules that tell you when they trigger and what effect they
have. A move depends on a fictional action and always has some
fictional effect. “Fictional” means that the action and effect come
from the world of the characters we’re describing. In the move above
the trigger is “when you attack an enemy in melee.” The effect is what
follows: a roll to be made and differing fictional effects based on the
outcome of the roll.

When a player describes their character doing something that
triggers a move, that move happens and its rules apply. If the move
requires a roll, its description will tell you what dice to roll and how
to read their results.

A character can’t take the fictional action that triggers a move
without that move occurring. For example, if Isaac tells the GM
that his character dashes past a crazed axe-wielding orc to the open
door, he makes the defy danger move because its trigger is “when
you act despite an imminent threat.” Isaac can’t just describe his
character running past the orc without making the defy danger move
and he can’t make the defy danger move without acting despite an
imminent threat or suffering a calamity. The moves and the fiction
go hand-in-hand.

Everyone at the table should listen for when moves apply. If it’s
ever unclear if a move has been triggered, everyone should work
together to clarify what’s happening. Ask questions of everyone
involved until everyone sees the situation the same way and then
roll the dice, or don’t, as the situation requires.