You win some, you lose some

[Mishihari Lord]

I would wager that your players are more upset about your use of invisibility than the actual TPK.

Look at it from their perspective. They're engaged in a fight with some enemies who they defeat. As soon as they win the battle, a more powerful foe instantly, magically appears and defeats them. *You* know that the monk leader was always there, but they don't. As far as they can tell, you pulled her out of your ass in an attempt to railroad the plot.

^Outstanding point.

First, find out why exactly they're mad. If it's what GSHamster's thinking, then show them the module and explain what happened. Or maybe there's something else. If it's just "I don't like to lose" then tell them to man up. (or woman up, as the case may be)

 

[aboyd]

Wow. I soooo couldn't run games for almost any of you in this thread.

When I start a campaign, I generally make it a point to say, "Let the dice fall where they may," and someone is usually dead within the first game or two. They roll up new characters and we keep going. This continues for the entire course of the campaign, maybe 2 or 3 or 4 deaths per year.

The idea of "player walkouts" over this is almost... amusing. If it happened, I wouldn't be mad. I'd think, 'Well, they didn't match with my play style, so I'll go game with all my other normal players who aren't acting all whiney and entitled."

And of course, when the players who walked out come running back into the room to tell me that I'm a jerk for calling them entitled, and how they're not, and how they're now walking out on me again so I can game all alone because I'm totally wrong, I'll shrug again and think, "Wow, sooooooooper entitled. I guess I'll really head back to my other players and stick with them. They don't act like this at all."

I mean, it's so weird to see this talk on this thread, it's almost foreign. I know players like this exist, but I just cast them off. They would probably be insulted by that and say, "NO, we cast YOU off" but that's fine. Whatever, just so long as we aren't around each other.

Weird. This whole thread is... weird.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

I am still not clear why it was a TPK. Did the PCs fail every stabilizing roll? Also if the sorcerer went to -1 because they did a spell they should not be bleeding out they should have been unconscious but stable.

Also if the fighter surrendered why is he dead?

...

Not a TPK. They lost, but weren't killed. I believe it was others in this thread who used the term TPK to refer to this defeat.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I've been playing and DM'ing for well over a decade and have to say that this situation is fine with me as a DM and as a player.

As a DM - You are following the module and trying to adjudicate reasonably and it certainly sounds like you actually pulled some punches at the end because of the history of your group and knowing that they don't like to retreat. It is and was well within your rights as a DM to TPK them for not trying to figure out a different way out of the fight whether it be by trying to talk to the NPC or retreating (especially if they are hurt already and see people start to go down fast to the NPC). You actually handled this very well by taking them prisoner instead of TPK'ing them, so they should actually be happier with you for pulling the punches at the end to save some characters they have invested time into.

As a player - I try to think of different ways to handle situations, I don't care if something was invisible and appears suddenly, I will figure out a way to deal with it. If I run in recklessly and die off to a powerful foe, so be it. I will roll up a new character and not cry about it since it was my fault and there are always other options available.

The only way I'd be upset is if the DM pigeonholed me into the situation without giving me any other way to get out of it. (i.e. a room w/o any exits and poisonous gas that will kill me in 2 rounds)

I assume your group is made up of mature adults and you can talk to them about the game you play at your table. Perhaps if you don't already, let them know that a certain module or AP is dangerous and that they are at real risk of dying during it and that you will reward thinking outside the box.

 

[Elf Witch]

Not a TPK. They lost, but weren't killed. I believe it was others in this thread who used the term TPK to refer to this defeat.

I realize that now.

And in my mind that changes things. They lost an encounter but were not TPKed I do think getting mad over that is silly.

Though I do think talking about it is always a good idea. It tends to clear the air.

 

[Elf Witch]

Wow. I soooo couldn't run games for almost any of you in this thread.

When I start a campaign, I generally make it a point to say, "Let the dice fall where they may," and someone is usually dead within the first game or two. They roll up new characters and we keep going. This continues for the entire course of the campaign, maybe 2 or 3 or 4 deaths per year.

The idea of "player walkouts" over this is almost... amusing. If it happened, I wouldn't be mad. I'd think, 'Well, they didn't match with my play style, so I'll go game with all my other normal players who aren't acting all whiney and entitled."

And of course, when the players who walked out come running back into the room to tell me that I'm a jerk for calling them entitled, and how they're not, and how they're now walking out on me again so I can game all alone because I'm totally wrong, I'll shrug again and think, "Wow, sooooooooper entitled. I guess I'll really head back to my other players and stick with them. They don't act like this at all."

I mean, it's so weird to see this talk on this thread, it's almost foreign. I know players like this exist, but I just cast them off. They would probably be insulted by that and say, "NO, we cast YOU off" but that's fine. Whatever, just so long as we aren't around each other.

Weird. This whole thread is... weird.

If you are up front at the beginning that this is how you run games and your players agree to it and then get upset and throw a fit then yeah they are being whiny.

But I am going to point out that I would never choose to play in your game because it is not my style of gaming. I prefer a game that has in place things to make permanent death less likely like action or fate points.

This is how my group choose to play we are not a bunch entitled whiny players. We have found that to much death impacts the role playing aspect of the game. It stops players from investing in their characters and encourages a kind of granny style play where people become afraid to do anything. To us it is not a fun way to play.

The great thing about RPGs is the freedom to play them in different ways with one way not being better than another.

I don't understand why some people who play let the dice fall where they may or run deadly campaigns have this habit of looking down their noses at players and DMs who don't like playing that way. Like some how we are playing the game wrong.

 

[merelycompetent]

I'm going to take a slightly different tack than most here:

Whatever you decide to do, do it with respect FOR the other people at the game table.

If you take the attitude that you're having to coddle them along, baby them, give them warm fuzzies, or hold their hands, they'll pick up on it.

If you take the attitude that you're having to scale things back because they're idiots, or make sub-optimal choices, couldn't "strategize" their way out of a wet paper bag, are professional tactical screw-ups, etc.... they'll pick up on it.

It's all in the attitude that you have towards the players and their playstyle. If you show respect for them, and their in-game decisions (even the bad ones), then you can still do the single most important thing you can do in a situation like this: Talk to your players.

If you don't show respect for them, your players will clam up on you. The frustration and aggravation will grow, until they either quit, or worse, continuing playing and simmering.

You have a rare opportunity here to find out exactly what kind of game they want to play in. It sounds like you are all good enough friends that, once the frustration and, yes, embarrassment of royally screwing up, fades a little, you can all talk about the game. Specifically, what they expect from you as DM, and what you expect from them as players.

If they're risk-averse and want PC immunity from death, you must find that out now, so you can tell them what kind of game you're running and where you're willing to bend so that you can all have fun. If you've got players who don't mind piling the paper in the character graveyard, that's necessary information for how you run things.

Make it clear to the players that enemies will use good tactics and information that they gain about the PCs against them... IF that's how you're running things.

I'm saying this as an old-school DM, who tells players up front that their characters will die, die, die horribly if they are stupidly suicidal. I'm also saying this as a player who doesn't like it when I find out that I've got PC immunity to death, but I'm OK with playing in that sort of game.

Speaking of which, I need to renew my RBDM card...

 

[prosfilaes]

I wonder about some of the tactics espoused from a roleplaying perspective. Legends of the old school tell me that the Monster Manual and DMG were strictly off limits to players and admitting to knowledge of them was strictly verboten while in the player seat. I suppose monks come from the PHB, but still, we've been discussing it as if every player and every PC had intimate knowledge of exactly what a monk can do. Perhaps not in SnowleopardVK's campaign, but somewhere there should be space for people who don't know the PHB inside and out, and for people running dimwitted or clueless characters somewhat realistically.

 

[fireinthedust]

I wonder about some of the tactics espoused from a roleplaying perspective. Legends of the old school tell me that the Monster Manual and DMG were strictly off limits to players and admitting to knowledge of them was strictly verboten while in the player seat. I suppose monks come from the PHB, but still, we've been discussing it as if every player and every PC had intimate knowledge of exactly what a monk can do. Perhaps not in SnowleopardVK's campaign, but somewhere there should be space for people who don't know the PHB inside and out, and for people running dimwitted or clueless characters somewhat realistically.

In Old School gaming? Yes, yes there is: it's called the table where people roll up new characters because their dim-witted clueless ones did something dim-witted and clueless!

Old School D&D involves life or death struggles against elite human beings, deadly monsters and cunning traps. While comedy relief is good, great even, if you're letting the dice fall where they may you can't expect someone playing an idiot to survive.

However, if it's about Role-playing, as Elf Witch said, you need an environment where people can invest in their characters. It's a different style of play.

I like the challenge of keeping my character alive, though I want it to be a fair challenge: no gimping PCs because the GM doesn't want to "lose". I've had that, and it's no fun. I just don't like being used as a plaything by the GM, whether or not it's an RP environment or a Fall-where-they-may environment.

 

[hemera]

Heck, I just tell them to roll up new characters and get out there and avenge their own deaths! Honestly, I make sure at the outset of each campaign to remind the players (and occasionally before games) that I pull no punches and if the dice are against them or they do something boneheaded....it's their loss.

Only had 1 player in 26 odd years ever have a huge fit and leave over it. The rest just did whatever funeral rite they wanted for their character sheet, and rolled onward.

(Personally fond of the viking sheet burial, but that's just me)