Young and Adult dragons too powerful?

[Mezzer]

Then have the 1st level Rogue use his Daily to Slide it 5 squares (forced movement is not affected).

Sadly, pg285 of the PHB clearly states that you can't slide (or forcibly move in any way) targets vertically.

Still, solo monsters are supposed to be used creatively, and expect the PCs to be creative while fighting them, so don't hold back.

 

[Mirtek]

Maybe the gods aren't as powerful as you though

Given that Orcus and Yeenoghu are both identified as primordials (and thus peers to the gods) I have to agree: gods just aren't as powerfull as one would think (barring Orcus' "i win button" which seems to be balanced for Orcus vs. PCs action and not for Orcus vs. other NPCs action)

Well, Orcus is supposed to be almost as powerful as any given deity (maybe even equal to the non-martial ones in terms of pure combat; probbaly only Bahamut, Tiamat Moridain, Vecna and the chained god could easily trump him.)

Actually I don't think that Vecna, Bahamut and Tiamat should necessarily be able to trump him. Orcus is on the level of a lesser deity and they're all only lesser deities either. So they should be app. equally powerfull. Moradin however should trump him.

However this "should" again depends on what they have to counter Orcus' "i win button". Otherwise even Moradin has only 50% hp when facing Orcus (it's just an ability balanced against PCs where the best Orcus can hope for is to hit a defender for app. 105-210 damage and not for hitting Moradin and dealing app. 800-1,600 damage)

and the most powerful ancient dragon (red) is 6 levels lower than him if I recall correctly. So my point stands. I have to say though, dragon breath has been really nerfed in this edition, like all AoE's.

And I wonder when we will start seeing stas for the deities (since its been stated pc's will be able to slay them)

Well, we also have the stats for Yeenoghu (also a primordial and lvl 28 solo) and he is below some of the dragons (and not forget about the exarchs which are far below some of the dragons)

 

[Sitara]

Well according to the new lore many demonslords such as demogorgan and orcus were primordials but were corrupted and transformed by the chained god into their current forms. Hmm, wonder what they looked like before? Like elementals maybe, orsimilar to balors? (Orcus did use to be a balor in the old edition lore)

Anyhow, orcus's i cheat button (which is rather cheap btw) ispowerful, but I am sure Bahamut, Tiamat and Moridin would have some type of immunity or at the very least, powers equaling that. Heck, tiamat probably can breathe through each of her heads. And all of them probably do radiant damage.

 

[Kaodi]

Ummm... I think I have read somewhere that in 4e D&D there is no such thing as a " lesser " deity. You are either a god or a demi-god I think. In my mind, Orcus is probably about equivalent with most demi-god exarchs. I imagine that most deities would also have an " I Win " button versus PCs.

Of course, there are probably primordials that are (or were) a lot stronger than Orcus. The one that smoked Io would probably have been at Moradin's level (or higher), but he was smoked in turn by Bahamut and Tiamat.

 

[Sitara]

Raistlin in turn smoked tiamat.

 

[Mirtek]

Ummm... I think I have read somewhere that in 4e D&D there is no such thing as a " lesser " deity. You are either a god or a demi-god I think. In my mind, Orcus is probably about equivalent with most demi-god exarchs.

Actually it's that there are no more demigods, they were all decreased to become exarchs.

Orcus is much more powerfull than any exarchs (and as an exarch of his own, Doresain the fromer demigod of ghouls).

As a matter of fact, exarchs look pitiful in 4e, the two known exarchs are lvl 27 elite and lvl 25 elite. Not even solos and below some ordinary demons/devils

I imagine that most deities would also have an " I Win " button versus PCs.

I fear that this won't be the case as their design view is now "gamist" and they no longer try to be "simulationist". So I do not believe they will concern themselves with NPC vs. NPC issues.

Death Touch is completly OK as far as Orcus vs. multiple PCs is conernced, it only becomes broken when Orcus fights annother cosmic entity like himself (just make an Orcus vs. Yeenoghu example battle. While Orcus is expected to win, he should not completly own poor Yeenoghu like his death touch allows him to do)

 

[Vempyre]

Well, I am less tired now and I can more clearly see ways for even melee PCs to get some good attacks in on an hovering dragon that stays at his reach 2 distance to spite them. This still clearly gives a very potent weapon to the low levels dragons that have enough room to hover vs any PC groups of equivalent level.

Did anybody also notice that in this edition white dragons are not so dumb (despite the fluff description that says they should still be?) anymore and barely less intelligent than other dragons? A young one has int 10 which is quite enough to elaborate good strategies compared to old edition whites. For that matter, even ancient red dragons only have an 18 in intelligence vs 15 for an ancient white.

 

[Vempyre]

And since the discussion also derailed about dragons vs gods :

Don't forget that the MM entries are only average "generic" dragons. The truly powerful ones are the movers and shakers of teh world that will not only be advanced as much as 5 levels up (a lvl 35 solo red dragon anyone?!) but probably have some additional unusual combat powers to boot. At least if I was to create the uber ancient red dragon in my campaign, he would be above lvl 30 and have special abilities that other dragons don't have. And didn't a DnD developer say this spring Moradin was around a lvl 34 solo opponent?

 

[Boarstorm]

And didn't a DnD developer say this spring Moradin was around a lvl 34 solo opponent?

My memory says a level 37 solo, but I have no source to back up this claim. I just remember it was Orcus+4.

 

[Mirtek]

Don't forget that the MM entries are only average "generic" dragons. The truly powerful ones are the movers and shakers of teh world that will not only be advanced as much as 5 levels up (a lvl 35 solo red dragon anyone?!)

Given how the standard 4e cosmology places it's most powerfull cosmic entities, that should be highly discouraged.

A lvl 30 solo dragon is already way too strong for what an ordinary 0815 creature should be.

And didn't a DnD developer say this spring Moradin was around a lvl 34 solo opponent?

AFAIR he wrote lvl 38 solo.

Anyway, beings like Yeenoghu (poor lvl 28 solo, what a disgrace for a primordial cosmic entity from the dawn of time) already show that lvl 28 solo dragons are way too high level.