Young and Adult dragons too powerful?

[Dracollich]

About the OPs concern thats dragons being to powerful. The easiest way for PCs to counter a dragon's fly ability is to take it on in its lair. The dragon most likely would not fly out of it in fear of the PCs plundering its treasure.

 

[Byronic]

About the OPs concern thats dragons being to powerful. The easiest way for PCs to counter a dragon's fly ability is to take it on in its lair. The dragon most likely would not fly out of it in fear of the PCs plundering its treasure.

I think the whole problem isn't the dragon flying away but rather staying out of melee range in the sky and blasting away.

 

[Vempyre]

I think the whole problem isn't the dragon flying away but rather staying out of melee range in the sky and blasting away.

Exact. He doesn't even have to have a lot of space to fly around, with the hover ability he just have to stay 2 squares up above the wizard and stay in reach of his melee attacks to maul the wizard to death without the defender being able to do a thing about it unless the defender has a reach weapon, which probably won't be common at all. As long as there is a ceiling of about 15 to 20 feet high, this becomes possible.

All dragons have at least reach 2 with their melee attacks, the older ones even more. The older ones are probably faced with PCs that have some form of fly ability anyway, in one form or another, so it isn't that much of a problem. But a lvl 2 party of PCs facing that young white, for example, have only their ranged attacks to be able to hit him. And since the dragon has intelligence 10, it will simple stay 2 squares above the party and kill all the ranger strikers n controllers 1st with his reach 2 melee attacks. It is not a perfect strategy and has some clever counters to it, but it certainly skews the fight toward the dragon even more than it should be.

What makes those young and adult dragons very strong is the fact that they can combine both their reach 2 abilities with the fly (hover) ability to make themselves untouchable by the rogue, fighter and melee ranger. Depending on which type of paladin and cleric you have (choice of powers), those might not have ranged attacks either leaving only the wizard, warlock and archer ranger being able to contribute to the fight with their powers depending on the party's choice of powers and classes.

 

[Family]

About the OPs concern thats dragons being to powerful. The easiest way for PCs to counter a dragon's fly ability is to take it on in its lair. The dragon most likely would not fly out of it in fear of the PCs plundering its treasure.

Also known as Rule 0, heck IT'S THE NAME OF THE BOOKS!

That & isn't there just to look pretty (although it does that too).

 

[Vempyre]

The easiest way for PCs to counter a dragon's fly ability is to take it on in its lair. The dragon most likely would not fly out of it in fear of the PCs plundering its treasure.

Most dragon lairs should have a ceiling high enough for the dragon to take flight in it's own lair, for a young or adult dragon it either requires only a ceiling of 15 (young dragon) or 20 (adult dragon) feet high to be able to take flight and hover above the party like a death machine that's certain to take out his ranged foes 1st.

Of course a clever DM will/should give the area a prop or two (stalagmites? ledge?) to help the melee guys jump at him. But it still make the dragon more powerful than a normal solo of it's lvl should, all because that (hover) ability gives him tactical choices no other creature of his level and power have. Makes them fearsome opponents way more than their stats would otherwise indicate.

 

[Surgoshan]

There's a level one daily power that could help.
Sleep. If it fails the first save, it falls[,] unconscious.

Icy Rays is a third level encounter power that immobilizes the target. Either one of those would be enough to put a hurt on a dragon.

 

[Karsten Crump]

A young dragon against a level 2 party? What?

So a 2nd level party could face a Young Black Dragon, which is exactly what I'm planning >=)

Ummmm... WHAAAT? A level 2 party against a freakin DRAGON? I don't know about you, but If I was a level two dude with all my other level 2 dudes, I would probably be anhihilated by the dragon's obscene hit damage(2d10 + 2 + 1d8 for a bite), multiattack, and probably not get to take him down because of the 15d10 + 45 hit points. Like, wow. Can you explain a little bit why this is in fact a reasonable challenge and not a death wish? Because I know I'm probably overestimating the dragon.

(TLDR) A young dragon seems like it would be too powerful for a 2nd level party. Please explain why its not, becuase you are probably right, im new to the whole DMing thing.

Thanks!

 

[MoutonRustique]

[MENTION=6958799]Karsten Crump[/MENTION]My friend, this discussion is a decade past - also, you seem to be conflating different editions of the game.

Have a great one and welcome to the boards!

 

[AtomicPope]

Ummmm... WHAAAT? A level 2 party against a freakin DRAGON? I don't know about you, but If I was a level two dude with all my other level 2 dudes, I would probably be anhihilated by the dragon's obscene hit damage(2d10 + 2 + 1d8 for a bite), multiattack, and probably not get to take him down because of the 15d10 + 45 hit points. Like, wow. Can you explain a little bit why this is in fact a reasonable challenge and not a death wish? Because I know I'm probably overestimating the dragon.

(TLDR) A young dragon seems like it would be too powerful for a 2nd level party. Please explain why its not, becuase you are probably right, im new to the whole DMing thing.

Thanks!

I remember this post, and the campaign so I'll put it into context:
* Old post: The post is 10 years old.
* 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons: We're currently on 5th edition D&D since it's release in 2014.
* Encounter Building: 5th Edition uses different encounter building than 4th.
* Dragons in 5e: A young black dragon in 4e was about as dangerous as a wyrmling in 5e.

If you're a new DM you should think about challenging your players and their characters, giving everyone a chance to shine. That means knowing your players and their characters. The campaign from 2008 where I pitting the 2nd level PCs against a Young Black Dragon was my 4th edition remake of 2nd edition "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands", probably one of the best modules ever written. I was running the game for everyone's kids (BTW, it's been so long since that post you quoted the kids are all grown up and in college, the army, the Marines, married, etc). Parents were playing too. The group was 10 people. That should give you a little context for how many PCs were fighting the dragon. The young dragon had a Kobold Cult guarding it. The PCs had to make their way through the caves, past the Kobold traps, past the guards, into the deeper caves and face the dragon on its treasure hoard. Because we had a Ranger, Druid, Rogue, and many more, I added traps where each one would be useful: crossbow traps for the Rogue, poisonous mushroom spores for the Ranger, noisy guard animals for the Druid, heavy boulders to move for the strong guys to roll out of the way, etc. It's a simple way to get everyone involved and thinking about the world.


In 5th Editions "Tales from the Yawning Portal" the PCs will be around 2nd level when they run into a White Dragon wyrmling. We were lucky in that everyone made their saves and the dragon didn't recharge its breath weapon. Even with luck on our side we almost wiped. Half the party was down when our Barbarian landed a killed blow. The Challenge Ratings of monsters is an estimate, not an absolute. You should consider your Player Character's defenses and attacks. For instance, there are some monsters with powerful spell defenses like a Rakshasa's spell immunity. A Rakshasa fighting a party of spell casters would be nearly invincible. However, that same monster wouldn't survive round 1 with a party of Paladins.