D&D 5E Young dragons, lair actions and CR

[Sword of Spirit]

That's not what the Monster Manual says. It says regional effects go with legendary dragons, but it does not mention legendary when describing lairs or lair actions, it only says "A [colour] Dragon's Lair" and "the dragon takes a lair action". See MM pages 89, 92, 95-6, 99, 102-3, 106, 109, 112, 114-5 and 118.

Also look at page 140 of Candlekeep Mysteries for an example of a young dragon with "lair actions as described in the Monster Manual".

MM page 11 attributes lair actions to legendary creatures but does not say that ONLY legendary creatures can have them. Hence hags & merrenoloths who have lair but not legendary actions.

I don't think you can really interpret the MM based on things that were done with monsters in later books (as someone recently brought up to me regarding interpreting DMG vehicle rules from such rules in later books). In the MM it mentions hag lairs, like it mentions ghost haunts, but doesn't actually give Lair Actions or Regional Effects for either.

The only context in which Lair Actions are addressed is under the section on Legendary Monsters, and every monster with Lair Actions or Regional Effects in that book is a Legendary Monster. The intent seems clear. The only reason in the least for considering if younger dragons should get those features is that it doesn't specifically call out that they only apply to Legendary versions in the dragon lair sections. While such a direct statement would have been nice for clarity, its inclusion is not required to establish that only Legendary Monsters get Lair Actions and Regional Effects in the MM. Later books made a decent call in deciding to expand that out to some other creatures that it could enhance, but that's an expansion, not the rule in the MM.

It is good to bring your point up though, that they have expanded the application since the MM came out in select cases.

 

[dave2008]

That's not what the Monster Manual says. It says regional effects go with legendary dragons, but it does not mention legendary when describing lairs or lair actions, it only says "A [colour] Dragon's Lair" and "the dragon takes a lair action". See MM pages 89, 92, 95-6, 99, 102-3, 106, 109, 112, 114-5 and 118.

Also look at page 140 of Candlekeep Mysteries for an example of a young dragon with "lair actions as described in the Monster Manual".

MM page 11 attributes lair actions to legendary creatures but does not say that ONLY legendary creatures can have them. Hence hags & merrenoloths who have lair but not legendary actions.

It is in the introduction to the MM where it says legendary monsters might have lairs.

Also, any creature can have a lair (like a hag), but typically only legendary creatures have lair actions (hags do not have lair actions in the MM). Now you can give any creature lair actions if you want and WotC did extend them to non-legendary monsters in volos, but the general intent is clear that they are usually restricted to legendary creatures

 

[Erich the Fuzzy]

I don't think you can really interpret the MM based on things that were done with monsters in later books (as someone recently brought up to me regarding interpreting DMG vehicle rules from such rules in later books). In the MM it mentions hag lairs, like it mentions ghost haunts, but doesn't actually give Lair Actions or Regional Effects for either.

The only context in which Lair Actions are addressed is under the section on Legendary Monsters, and every monster with Lair Actions or Regional Effects in that book is a Legendary Monster. The intent seems clear. The only reason in the least for considering if younger dragons should get those features is that it doesn't specifically call out that they only apply to Legendary versions in the dragon lair sections. While such a direct statement would have been nice for clarity, its inclusion is not required to establish that only Legendary Monsters get Lair Actions and Regional Effects in the MM. Later books made a decent call in deciding to expand that out to some other creatures that it could enhance, but that's an expansion, not the rule in the MM.

It is good to bring your point up though, that they have expanded the application since the MM came out in select cases.

Given that we now play in a 5e environment that does in fact include those later official books, why would we be constrained to an earlier interpretation of the MM that ignores what has come out later? When the authors of the original books put out more material that demonstrates their thinking, why should we not pay attention to it? And since when are updates to 5e rules NOT backwards-reaching? New rules & rulings affect how older/existing materials are officially interpreted, unless you are setting an arbitrary "end date" for rules for your personal table. So in 2015 it would have been fair to interpret MM as only linking lair/regional with legendary creatures, but now we know better and can interpret the MM in that new light.

"The only context in which Lair Actions are addressed is under the section on Legendary Monsters" except that's not true. Lair actions are also fully addressed and described under each specific dragon, to the level of detail that the description on page 11 is really unnecessary and redundant.

"every monster with Lair Actions or Regional Effects in that book is a Legendary Monster" - well, that's circular logic. If one interprets dragon's lair actions as they are written in the dragon descriptions, they are not attributed only to legendary monsters. Unless you assume the conclusion in the premise.

Where, on page 11, does it say that only legendary creatures can have lair actions? The fact that all legendary creatures in MM have lair actions does not mean that all creatures in the MM with lair actions must be legendary - as I argue is the case with young dragons. Under the principle of specific beats general, page 11 states the general rule of lair/regional for legendary creatures but the description of any specific monster could give either of these to a non-legendary monster. If that's the case with hags, with merrenoloths, and with morkoths (lair actions AND regional effects, but no legendary actions) then why would that not equally be the case with dragons (not just legendary dragons) right in the MM? Each of the 10 individual MM descriptions says dragons have lair actions, not legendary dragons have lair actions.

In contrast, notice that the regional effects, also described with each dragon's description, are specified as applying only to legendary dragons. Why is that word used for the regional effects but not lair actions, 10 times out of 10? (If lair actions followed regional effects, one might assume the earlier use of legendary was continued, but in every case, lair actions come before the regional effects specific to legendary dragons.)

Especially when Candlekeep contains a young dragon with "lair actions as described in the Monster Manual." Whoever wrote this seems to believe that the Monster Manual describes lair actions for young dragons. Who edited that particular adventure? Chris Perkins. But what would he know? He was only the lead on MM.

 

[Erich the Fuzzy]

It is in the introduction to the MM where it says legendary monsters might have lairs.
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Also, any creature can have a lair (like a hag), but typically only legendary creatures have lair actions (hags do not have lair actions in the MM). Now you can give any creature lair actions if you want and WotC did extend them to non-legendary monsters in volos, but the general intent is clear that they are usually restricted to legendary creatures

The introduction says that legendary creatures might have lair actions (and in fact, most of them do), but it does not say only legendary creatures can have lair actions. I agree that while it is typical that lair actions go with legendary creatures, it is not required in the MM. And the way dragon descriptions are written, young dragons - if they have a long-established lair (which often they don't) - could have the lair actions described in the specific monster listings for dragons. It would fit the specific-beats-general pattern which is key to 5e RAW.

I think we can agree that the introduction is intended to present general rules or describe typical situations, not to limit the variety of the over 300 different monsters which follow. Which is also why every single time a monster has legendary or lair actions or regional effects, they are described in full in that monster's listing without reference to the introduction. The intro is a heads-up to what you can typically expect to see, not a rigid constraint.

 

[aco175]

If the expectation is that the PCs will encounter it as a solo monster, I would give it actions to use an attack or fly on another PCs turn. You want to have the encounter be memorable and the dragon be talked about as a great fight.

 

[dave2008]

The introduction says that legendary creatures might have lair actions (and in fact, most of them do), but it does not say only legendary creatures can have lair actions. I agree that while it is typical that lair actions go with legendary creatures, it is not required in the MM. And the way dragon descriptions are written, young dragons - if they have a long-established lair (which often they don't) - could have the lair actions described in the specific monster listings for dragons. It would fit the specific-beats-general pattern which is key to 5e RAW.

I think we can agree that the introduction is intended to present general rules or describe typical situations, not to limit the variety of the over 300 different monsters which follow. Which is also why every single time a monster has legendary or lair actions or regional effects, they are described in full in that monster's listing without reference to the introduction. The intro is a heads-up to what you can typically expect to see, not a rigid constraint.

sure

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Given that we now play in a 5e environment that does in fact include those later official books, why would we be constrained to an earlier interpretation of the MM that ignores what has come out later? When the authors of the original books put out more material that demonstrates their thinking, why should we not pay attention to it? And since when are updates to 5e rules NOT backwards-reaching? New rules & rulings affect how older/existing materials are officially interpreted, unless you are setting an arbitrary "end date" for rules for your personal table. So in 2015 it would have been fair to interpret MM as only linking lair/regional with legendary creatures, but now we know better and can interpret the MM in that new light.

"The only context in which Lair Actions are addressed is under the section on Legendary Monsters" except that's not true. Lair actions are also fully addressed and described under each specific dragon, to the level of detail that the description on page 11 is really unnecessary and redundant.

"every monster with Lair Actions or Regional Effects in that book is a Legendary Monster" - well, that's circular logic. If one interprets dragon's lair actions as they are written in the dragon descriptions, they are not attributed only to legendary monsters. Unless you assume the conclusion in the premise.

Where, on page 11, does it say that only legendary creatures can have lair actions? The fact that all legendary creatures in MM have lair actions does not mean that all creatures in the MM with lair actions must be legendary - as I argue is the case with young dragons. Under the principle of specific beats general, page 11 states the general rule of lair/regional for legendary creatures but the description of any specific monster could give either of these to a non-legendary monster. If that's the case with hags, with merrenoloths, and with morkoths (lair actions AND regional effects, but no legendary actions) then why would that not equally be the case with dragons (not just legendary dragons) right in the MM? Each of the 10 individual MM descriptions says dragons have lair actions, not legendary dragons have lair actions.

In contrast, notice that the regional effects, also described with each dragon's description, are specified as applying only to legendary dragons. Why is that word used for the regional effects but not lair actions, 10 times out of 10? (If lair actions followed regional effects, one might assume the earlier use of legendary was continued, but in every case, lair actions come before the regional effects specific to legendary dragons.)

Especially when Candlekeep contains a young dragon with "lair actions as described in the Monster Manual." Whoever wrote this seems to believe that the Monster Manual describes lair actions for young dragons. Who edited that particular adventure? Chris Perkins. But what would he know? He was only the lead on MM.

I see what you’re saying here. The Legendary Creature section talks about how they can have Lair Actions, but Lair Actions could just be a more general thing that they are referencing in that context. They could also include Lair Actions in other places. Is that a correct representation?

Thats a reasonable point so I went back and examined it to reevaluate. What I discovered is there are two problems with the idea. The lesser problem is consistency. If Lair Actions are a general thing, it would make more sense for them to be introduced (change my statement about them being “addressed” to “introduced”) in a general place in the Intro section rather than as a subheading of a subheading of the Legendary Creatures heading. Now, its possible they just made a mistake and forgot they didn‘t previously address it somewhere more general, but I think that is less likely than it being intentional. It is possible that its a hidden rule. There are a few apparent rules like that that seem to have general applicability though they are hidden away in some limited context, like the debatable rules for non-standard familiars being connected to the find familiar spell (and deriving all its benefits) that I argue in favor of. However in this case I find it less likely, and the second problem provides stronger support for that. While dragons do describe their Lair Actions in the dragon entries, they fail to give some of the general rules for Lair Actions, which are only introduced/fully addressed in the Legendary Creatures subcategory. The rules in bold are missing from the dragon entries:

“Lair Actions​

If a legendary creature has lair actions, it can use them to harness the ambient magic in its lair. On initiative count 20 (losing all initiative ties), it can use one of its lair action options. It can’t do so while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can’t use one until after its first turn in the combat.”

So either you don‘t reference the Legendary Creatures section and just have dragons be exempt from those rules (as well as every other Legendary creature if the basis is only reading what is in the creature entry and not referencing the intro, since none of them include those rules in their entries), or you could reference those rules for legendary dragons, but since they explicitly only refer to legendary creatures and you are applying these lair actions to non-legendary creatures of which nothing was spoken you exempt those creatures from those bolded rules. Or you could do as I do and assume that the dragon Lair Action’s section’s reliance on rules only fully addressed in the Legendary Creatures section means that it only applies to Legendary dragons. I feel that‘s a more consistent interpretation of the textual evidence.

As far as Chris Perkins…he may be coming down with a case of Crawforditis, where his opinion on the 5e rules changes without warning in ways that would make you think he always thought the new way, were it not for the documented evidence to the contrary. (I actually like Jeremy Crawford, but he does change his mind on what the rules he wrote meant, and he’s way more focused on rules minutia than Chris Perkins.)

 

[billd91]

As long as you use the lair actions to reevaluate the creature’s CR, I don’t have a problem with giving a set of lair actions to a wide variety of creatures serving the adventure as boss monsters.